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Old 05-11-2004, 01:00 AM   #16
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WC

Twisted comm is the correct description - not twisted stack.

These new motors have the comm segments split with a diagonal line rather than the straight up and down line of a conventional comm.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:25 AM   #17
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Default Silly Description in my book

I always thought the comm was the copper bits the brushes made contact with. In the case of the D6 it is the stacks that are twisted to build up rpm a lot quicker and push out the heat. Which ever way it is described are the stacks twisted on the V2 motors. Because if it is the Comm that is twisted then the brushes would always overlap.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:36 AM   #18
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Yes - It is definately the copper comm where the brushes contact that is twisted on some versions of the motor.
Namely - Hara, Steenari and Surikarn versions.

The stack is still straight.

Not sure of the theory behind the twisted comm but the motors seem to carry high revs and need gearing down compared to the equivalent wind with a straight comm.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cobra81li200

PS : my informations on the V2 comes from Oscar Jansen himself, whom I interviewed especially about that for a magazine I write for.
What magazine? RcRacer?

XRay rulez
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:22 AM   #20
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I'm sure that Orion says that the Hara version is well suited to indoor tracks.
The spooling time is another matter.
Here you have a comparison of a Hara 12x1 and a Vantage 12x1

One thing that's immediatly apparent is the RPM of the Hara - 47000 without flywheel (calculated). That's 10000 rpm more than the Vantage.
However the torque is kind of miserable till the 20000 rpm.

But there's a catch. And that's when you look at the graph with time in the x axle....
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:32 AM   #21
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If you look closely at the 2 second mark the power on the Hara is amazing compared with the vantage.
This is more or less the same diff that you have with "normal" motors like the Ti, Kr and even the Core (top).

My motor was a paper weight when I looked under the same light as the others. The ratio would seem like impossible to understand.

In fact this motor has to be geared so low that it seems like a 10 or a 9 ratio. But it still rocks. But i does it on a fairly big track where there's time to spool.
That's why I doubt that this is good for an indoor (i.e short) track.

On a big track is like having a 7th gear at the middle of the straight. It just pulls away.

It really shines after the 1st second. And there are not many tracks where you spend more than 1 or 2 seconds on a straight.

Ok, this is dyno racing, but now track racing....

The motor goes fast but accelerates slowly. I found out that you need to keep the revs in the middle range on the curves so that you keep the motor on the "zone". Then it accelerates as fast as any motor.
But do not try this unless your car is almost glued to the track. It takes some time to get used to it.

With an amazing low ratio it does not get hot at all (65-70 celsius) and after 9 packs the brushes still show some serrated on them.... (print brushes with hard springs).

It's a good motor, no doubt about it. However I would never have found out if I didn't spend a couple of hours on a dyno comparing it with motors I know already.
Without this knowledge I would just burn brushes and probably the motor trying to gear it closer to a regular 12...
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by doumdoum
What magazine? RcRacer?

XRay rulez
2Doum
No it's a french magazine, so you don't know it thus i didn't name it.

Antonio : so you just said the same thing as me : it's got to be geared very low...
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Re: Twisted Comm

Quote:
Originally posted by WC
Slight correction required...

You guys should say twisted "armature stacks" (like Trinity D6).


The "comm" = commutator is the copper bit where the brushes touch.
Thank you, I KNOW what I'm talking about and it's the comm.
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:55 AM   #24
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Yeah I know

What I think is that it has to be geared absurdly low for an indoor track.
Probably the slow acceleration problem goes away with a ratio of 9:1 LOL
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by racer-oZ
Once you run an Orion v2 it will be a no brainer for you. The Orion motors run as fast or faster than other motors of equal winds, but there is a ton less maintenance. I have finally cycled through a set of brushes on my 10x1 touring version which comes with the enduro brushes. Racing mod sedan I got 23 complete runs (5minutes per run) on the original set of brushes, that's 3 weekends of racing!

I trued the motor before each day of racing and then never took it out of the car during race day. You will only have to take about .001 - .002 of an inch off the comm to get it clean in between weekends.

Last fall I ran a D5 and a Kr in my sedan and had to true them every 2 runs and had to put a new set of brushes in every time I cut the comm or significant performance was lost. The D5, Kr and Orion motors were all close in speed on the track, but by running the Orion I've saved 40 dollars in brushes in 3 weekends and no longer true motors on race days.

Anyway, just my two cents for the day

racer-oZ

ps... I will say I put a v2 endbell on my D5 and it is a screamer!
Ok, but have you ever tried a motor with CS brushes ? I get 50+ runs out of my brushes and the maintenance is exactly what you described. Performance wise, the motor needs to be highly timed and geared low (just as a V2) to give it's best, the only difference is that I've been using those brushes for the past two years now...
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:01 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by antoniop
Yeah I know

What I think is that it has to be geared absurdly low for an indoor track.
Probably the slow acceleration problem goes away with a ratio of 9:1 LOL
That's what I said : it's got to be geared between 9.5 and 7.2, which is absurdly low, but does work.

As an example, at the LRP TCM in Eppelheim, the motors were not using the twisted comms because the track was too big and the motors were overheating...
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:41 AM   #27
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Default Twisted comm

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob The Builder
Yes - It is definately the copper comm where the brushes contact that is twisted on some versions of the motor.
Namely - Hara, Steenari and Surikarn versions.

The stack is still straight.

Not sure of the theory behind the twisted comm but the motors seem to carry high revs and need gearing down compared to the equivalent wind with a straight comm.
Can we have a picture of the twisted comms? It will help us understand what you mean!

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Old 05-11-2004, 06:53 AM   #28
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Sorry Cobra I didn't read you post completely.

This motor may be a mess for those that are used to "regular" motors. Especially in Europe where we are limited to 12 and kind of used to a narrow range of ratios.

You put one of these motors in the hands of a guy used to gear a Ti at 6.00 and unless he knows that the motor revs a lot he'll miss the ratio by a football field. In the meantime brushes and comm will cook with the heat.

It's not by chance that the Orion forum has a topic just for Gearing V2 questions.

However I've tested the motor on a large track and I think that it's at ease in that situation.
Let's see what the results bring us. Till now I'm with Cobra. Any motor with CS silver brushes will last as long (if not more) and will be less prone to errors than any of these super revving motors.
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Old 05-11-2004, 07:09 AM   #29
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Quote:
Ok, but have you ever tried a motor with CS brushes ? I get 50+ runs out of my brushes and the maintenance is exactly what you described. Performance wise, the motor needs to be highly timed and geared low (just as a V2) to give it's best, the only difference is that I've been using those brushes for the past two years now...
No I haven't tried those brushes, it sounds like you are ahead of the curve. I've never seen them for sale here in the U.S. If you are getting that kind of performance out of them I think that's great!

Does CS make a brush to fit a Kr or D5? And where are they sold in the U.S. so some guys who are loyal to some other motor manufacturers can try them out.

In my track testing I'm going to stick with the Orion system, in my opinion there is no better on the market right now.

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Old 05-11-2004, 07:13 AM   #30
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I dunno if they're available in US, and for the moment, they're only standup brushes, but you still can re-cut them to fit a laydown endbel...
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