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-   -   frustrating 19 turn motors (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/39022-frustrating-19-turn-motors.html)

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-23-2004 07:09 AM

frustrating 19 turn motors
 
I have a Losi xxx-s 90 spur
I have bought 3 new 19turn motors and they vary so much with regards to gearing, revs, and tork

Reedy Quad 513, when I first spun this up on a mates dyno a read out of 26,000 rpm, 'PANTS' what brushes/spings do I need to get more revs?? or am I doing something wrong!!

Reedy Quad 514 yet to be got, but is a dyno version of the 513

Reedy chrome, this seems to have more revs but less tork how do I gear ?? what brushes/spings do I need ??

Chameleon 2 spun this one up and got 34,000 rpm
used 4499's and sounds like its screaming to be used and abused

frustrated of UK :cry:

David Root 04-23-2004 07:24 AM

There is more to life than RPM
 
Try Reedy #767 brushes and red springs on boty. Make sure the arm is shimmed in the center of the magnetic field. Make Xtra sure the brush hoods are lined up exactly right so the brush wears right in the center. Should be good.

Cain 04-23-2004 07:25 AM

from what I have been reading you would want to setup your quad mags like this:

767s all around or on positive side, 766 on other side

Fiddlestick settings of 7.0+ and 6.5- ( or purple springs +, red springs - ) You may have to tweak this alittle stiffer depending how much arcing you get.

Align the hoods straight across. This is done to retard the timing some as 24 degrees of timing on this motor really is too much from what I have been reading. If allowed, you can cut the inner tab and reduce the timing to a max of 18 degrees. I use about 12 and the motor ran a whole lot better.


Make sure that you brushes are fully seated, especially if you go with 767s. 766s actually take awhile to seat, I had to run mine for about 20 minutes before it finally seated.

After you seat the brushes, give the comm a light cut and reseat for about 1 minute. This should give you max power.

What Dyno are you using? From what I understand the Quad Mag makes more torque, so you have to gear it up in you vehicle to see it perform. So on some dyno's like the Fantom it will look bad if you only hunt for RPM, but when actually running the motor and gearing it up, it really screams around the track.

Cain 04-23-2004 07:28 AM

Another thing 766s make more torque but also less RPM. the 767s should bump up the RPM you are seeing.

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-23-2004 07:47 AM

Thanks guys for all you info it is much appreciated, any more tips keep them coming :D

Cain 04-23-2004 08:00 AM

I think when you have motors that scream RPMs but not as much torque you gear alittle lower. Could be wrong however as motors I use have alot of torque.

I will be running a Reedy Silver can 19T motor today to test it out and see if it will be my backup motor or practice motor. I currently have it configured like this:

766s all around ( figured more torque would be good )
7.0+ , 6.5- FS settings

The hoods looked pretty good so I wasn't worried too much about aligning them.

I will be running this in a TC3 so it may give you some idea how a touring car should run with this motor.

As for the Quad mag's, They can run really strong when geared right. The local Factory driver gets his Chameleons to fly off the shelve and his Quad Mags are fast too, my chameleons only wanted to fly in the trash can :lol:

raving-monkey 04-23-2004 08:53 AM

if i am correct softer springs will give more rpm, where as harder ones will give more torque

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-23-2004 09:31 AM

sorry guy's no to sure what you mean by 7.0+ , 6.5- FS settings ??:confused: remember I come from that lttle planet they call UK :D

Cain 04-23-2004 09:44 AM

A fiddlestick is a little device that you can measure the tension of the springs on the brush. Not sure where you would get one in the UK however.

Basically I would start with purple + / red - spring settings with the Quad Mag as it seems to like more tension, especially with all that timing.

Seriously, if the rules allow, reduce the timing. I liked my Quad Mag much better with less timing on it.

berger 04-23-2004 09:47 AM


Originally posted by raving-monkey
if i am correct softer springs will give more rpm, where as harder ones will give more torque
The spring tension required is governed by the load that the motor is under. So as the dyno can't match the varying loads of the track then the dyno can't really help with accurately guaging what the best spring tension will be.
If the springs are too hard then the motor will rev higher with softer springs.
The spring tension should never be less than what is necessary to hold the brush onto the commutator.
The more current that is drawn then the more the brushes are pushed away from the comm so the stiffer the springs need to be.
When the grip is low and the wheels spin rather than grip then the motor draws less current.
So on low grip tracks less spring tension is the way to go. But you can't just go ridiculously soft.
On higher grip tracks then you have choices, going stiffer on the spings and gearing up to take advantage of torque is one different way.

raving-monkey 04-23-2004 09:55 AM

here in UK we aren't allowed to change the timing (unless you are running at a none BRCA affiliated club how ever:nod: :p :lol: )

berger 04-23-2004 10:04 AM


Originally posted by raving-monkey
here in UK we aren't allowed to change the timing (unless you are running at a none BRCA affiliated club how ever:nod: :p :lol: )
What section of the rulebook is that under, i can find no mention of timing changes being illegal. Under section 5 "motors" timing changes are not mentioned just that legal motors decided by the brca electric board are to be used.

raving-monkey 04-23-2004 10:56 AM

yeah, but the BRCA limit is 24 degrees. i was talking to this guy that runs a club and he said it says in the club handbook the BRCA limit is 24 degrees i think.

i can check up for ya if ya want.

berger 04-23-2004 10:59 AM

Under section 5 of the 2003 rules which can be found in pdf format on the brca website, not timing limitations are mentioned except for 27 turn turn motors which have to have a fixed 24 degrees of timing.

raving-monkey 04-23-2004 11:20 AM

well if you are allowed to change it why put the little tab in there in the first place?

fatdoggy 04-23-2004 01:10 PM

For the reedy quad mag, people at my local track run rollouts very close to stock. Very fast but I've seen a few get fried. :lol:

modeltech 04-23-2004 02:14 PM


Originally posted by berger
Under section 5 of the 2003 rules which can be found in pdf format on the brca website, not timing limitations are mentioned except for 27 turn turn motors which have to have a fixed 24 degrees of timing.
Berger, you need to read ALL the rules.......:rolleyes:

"7.3 All rebuildable standard or stock motors must be of the bushing type with an end bell that locks the timing advance at 24 degrees. .............. "

....and before you say anything, this rule DOES apply to the 19 turn class motors as well. There is a subsequent rule allowing the use of ball raced bearings in these motors..

raving-monkey 04-23-2004 02:32 PM

toooold yaaaa:D :nod: :lol: :p

i thought the rule was that it had to be stuck at 24 degrees...and mr modeltech just prooved it.

thx:lol:

berger 04-23-2004 04:00 PM


Originally posted by modeltech
Berger, you need to read ALL the rules.......:rolleyes:

"7.3 All rebuildable standard or stock motors must be of the bushing type with an end bell that locks the timing advance at 24 degrees. .............. "

....and before you say anything, this rule DOES apply to the 19 turn class motors as well. There is a subsequent rule allowing the use of ball raced bearings in these motors..

My rule 7.3 covers formula one cars, as i said im not reading from the complete rules just the downloaded version so have your rolleyes back :rolleyes: And your not going to run an illegal adjustable timing motor anyway are you.

Masterfaster 04-23-2004 05:53 PM

at our track everybody runs about 3 to 4 teeth larger on 19t over stock gearing. the C2 I still believe is the best 19t out there. my reedy quad mag is a dog no matter what brushes, springs, gearing I run on it.

SalvadoriRacing 04-23-2004 07:01 PM

hi!!!!

has anybody ever tried MATRIX 19T motors (specially the team modified quadmag 19S)?????

anyaway, i would like to see some dyno numbers from 19t motors......thanks!!!!

stankulas 04-23-2004 07:58 PM

if you want the most bang for the buck go whit the c2 its my favorite motor good balance bettween torque and rrrr"s and very forgiving if you over gear this is the only motor that has ever seen 3-4 comms in it. one of the wors't is the binary 19t extrmelly fast for the first 6 runs and then use it for a fishing line weight its that bad. reedy quad i have mixed fellings on it it is very torquey i cut the timming tab on it and ran it at 36deg and it was the fastest 19t i ever ran but turned the comm red

Cain 04-23-2004 08:19 PM

stan, part of the reason that the comm went poof is that the timing needs to be turned down to around 12 degrees. I actually was on pace with Mike once I went down to 12 degrees and I know the motor needs more work.

I got some word from Big Jim that anything basically above 15 degrees will seriously impact this motor and cause the magnets to go soft.

Stan, try and rezapp the magnets and put your timing at 12 degrees and give it a run this sunday.

fatdoggy 04-23-2004 08:22 PM

I cut the tab off one of my stockers a while back(mvp with stand-up brushes). When I hooked it up to a 4 cell and increased the timing slowly while it was running the rpm's slowly went down, when I went slowly back to 0 degrees timing the rpm's went slowly back up. :confused: WTF? any ideas?

raving-monkey 04-24-2004 02:41 AM

crazy.....i thought advanced timing gave more rpm and negative timing gave more torque.

i was also told my someone that if you wanted to increase/decrease the timing with laydown brushes, it wouldnt have no effect unless you cut have of the brush face off....you get what i mean...is this true?

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-24-2004 03:24 PM

many tanks for all that info. I am racing tomorrow in a national and will let you know how I got on with the tips
Thankx;)

raving-monkey 04-24-2004 04:52 PM

right, i have a reedy quad mag, my dad also does.

can i ask why mine is a dyno version, but my dads isn't...i was told by the lhs guy that they came in the same delivery....are some dyno versions and some not...as they were the same price:weird: :weird: :confused: :confused:

fatdoggy 04-25-2004 01:15 PM

They dyno'd version may have 767's instead of 766 brushes. They probably have the same springs.

I tried advancing the timing again today and it did the exact opposite. At 36 degrees timing the motor sounds a touch slower then my monster rpm wise but it has boat load more torque. Other then having to up the trim to get rid of the drag brake effect of the timing, it should be good. Heats up like a mother though. :lol:

raving-monkey 04-25-2004 01:28 PM


Originally posted by fatdoggy
They dyno'd version may have 767's instead of 766 brushes. They probably have the same springs.
ok, thanks for that.

i ran my dads motor in the final last night (he decided not to run, not sure why :S)

anyway, i couldnt feel any different in them, well obviously i could coz one had been used more than the other so the comm and brushes were worn more on one.

but other than that they feel identical:nod: :sweat:

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-27-2004 05:07 PM

Ok guy's here goes, I used the Ready Quad 514 which is the dyno version, wasnt sure what brushes came with it though (maybe I should have left them in?). I put some, dare I say Schumacer KRY brushes which gave me loads of tork out of the corners and plenty of staight line speed, changed them for 766 did not seem as good though. Put myself 10th in the C, final and came 6th in the first leg and 7th in the second leg, I could have come 5th but me and another guy came together and both spun on our lids, another car came round the corner and rolled me onto my boots again, but waited for the marshal to turn the other guy over as well, and both went on racing but came 7th
Regarding the Reedy Chrome, I did not get around to using it nor the Chameleon 2 as I loaned it to a much younger a better driver than my self. I have 3 more nationals to do and will use the other 2 motors then and possibly before
Regards T,T, :cool:

TheCoolCanFanMan 04-27-2004 05:10 PM

BTW The dyno version have a different spring to the 513, they are copper in colour and are bent in a different way, I changed the positive side for a black spring this gave me more acceleration :)

Cain 04-27-2004 06:48 PM

great to hear you got good performance out of them.

Maybe we just got a bad batch in CT?


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