CEFX 2010 - A new Evolution.
04-08-2010, 11:32 AM
#31
the way the motor is mounted to the alu is crazy
04-08-2010, 11:44 AM
#32
Hi Josh,
I'm really interested in this so am also looking for a bit more information and maybe a little reassurance.
Does this evolution require a much different setup or is it much different to drive than a standard car, or is it just faster? Does it have any particular charicteristics?
I'd also like to see screw holes available for the li-po tray as my batts don't have humps and I don't think tape alone is secure enough. Even if it doesn't need lead to balance the tray or brace would be welcome.
Infact, will there be a 'hump cut-out free' chassis option available?
Does the car still use M2.5 screws or are they all M3 now?
Several design aspects of the Photon make it the best car I've had, but my only and biggest problem with the Photon is that it tweeks easy, much easier than a 416 or BD5 (quanitatively tested!). I think this was partially due to the C/S screw in the decks and wings holding a tweek (and having less clamping force- and proably mostly due to manufacturing tolerances in the carbon parts being 'loose'. My kit for example (and several others I know) had a top deck too short (by half a mm) which brought a bow in to the main deck, FROM NEW. A replacement top deck halved the problem but it's still there. Are you able to reassure me of the quality of your CNC facilities and carbon sheet as opposed to the standard stuff? I don't want to bad mouth TOP, or expect you to after the split, but I'm looking for an excuse as to why your conversion will be different.
I see you're aiming to eliminate tweek by having no solid cenction between the front/rear bulheads and centre deck by not joining them together and usning the main deck only to connect the structures. But you're keeping the C/S screws. Has/will the car be 'tweek tested' by mortals? Or would you offer a button head screw deck option? Or do you have a solid statement on the merits of using countersunk screws in the top deck?
TIA for a partial or full response, and good luck with the project. I'm waiting for a UK shipping confirmation to place my order!
Cheers,
Chris.
I'm really interested in this so am also looking for a bit more information and maybe a little reassurance.
Does this evolution require a much different setup or is it much different to drive than a standard car, or is it just faster? Does it have any particular charicteristics?
I'd also like to see screw holes available for the li-po tray as my batts don't have humps and I don't think tape alone is secure enough. Even if it doesn't need lead to balance the tray or brace would be welcome.
Infact, will there be a 'hump cut-out free' chassis option available?
Does the car still use M2.5 screws or are they all M3 now?
Several design aspects of the Photon make it the best car I've had, but my only and biggest problem with the Photon is that it tweeks easy, much easier than a 416 or BD5 (quanitatively tested!). I think this was partially due to the C/S screw in the decks and wings holding a tweek (and having less clamping force- and proably mostly due to manufacturing tolerances in the carbon parts being 'loose'. My kit for example (and several others I know) had a top deck too short (by half a mm) which brought a bow in to the main deck, FROM NEW. A replacement top deck halved the problem but it's still there. Are you able to reassure me of the quality of your CNC facilities and carbon sheet as opposed to the standard stuff? I don't want to bad mouth TOP, or expect you to after the split, but I'm looking for an excuse as to why your conversion will be different.
I see you're aiming to eliminate tweek by having no solid cenction between the front/rear bulheads and centre deck by not joining them together and usning the main deck only to connect the structures. But you're keeping the C/S screws. Has/will the car be 'tweek tested' by mortals? Or would you offer a button head screw deck option? Or do you have a solid statement on the merits of using countersunk screws in the top deck?
TIA for a partial or full response, and good luck with the project. I'm waiting for a UK shipping confirmation to place my order!
Cheers,
Chris.
04-08-2010, 01:10 PM
#34
Looks like more flex for me...
04-08-2010, 01:26 PM
#35
"The next concept of the Evolution was to completely "unlock" all the bulkheads and motor plates from the top plates to completely eliminate tweaking from the car. The bulkheads were redesigned to have a larger foot print towards the center of the car and the front and rear top plates would only mount with standoffs and a front top plate mount. Using interlocking leverage points we were able to achieve the desired flexability of the car with no problems at all of tweaking even through several very hard impacts in testing (enough to break several suspension parts)."
04-08-2010, 04:54 PM
#37
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Awesome design Josh, do you ever run out of ideas? You come up with some crazy stuff! Congrats!!
04-08-2010, 05:11 PM
#39
04-08-2010, 10:30 PM
#40
are there photos of the complete car anywhere?
04-09-2010, 12:49 AM
#42
04-09-2010, 04:46 AM
#43
nope its held by two screws side by side. The hole pattern on the BL motors allows this and it will drop the motor height around 1.5-2mm. That is one of the reasons the chassis is cut off under the motor. the motor will probably be about flush with the bottom of the chassis.
Hyperdrive has this on their new oval cars too. But I know thats not where Josh got the idea...he only pays attention to the competition thats fast! LOL
EA
Hyperdrive has this on their new oval cars too. But I know thats not where Josh got the idea...he only pays attention to the competition thats fast! LOL
EA
04-09-2010, 04:53 AM
#44
04-09-2010, 08:31 AM
#45
Bag - The Evolution drives smoother, is more balanced in right/left corners and has a lot more forward bite. Because the car is much more solid in the center of the corner it allows you to push the car harder without it stepping out or doing strange things. On a single fast lap, I don't think it's a lot faster than the stock car. In consistancy and drivability I would say I'm 3-6 seconds faster due to more laps close to my fastest and less mistakes because of being on the edge.
As far as different versions of the chassis, we will probably make some either stiffer/softer depending on more testing and development. The production will be slightly stiffer than what I used in testing because of our new bulkheads and the motor mounting plates have a little more "coverage" on the chassis. When we are cutting the production next week I will be cutting several different materials also for further testing to begin immediatly but overall I am super happy with the car as it was at the Birds and Nats.
Still uses the 2.5mm screws for the camber plates. All the rest are 3mm now.
The reason to disconnect the motor plate, mount plate, top deck mount, bulkheads was to isolate tweaking points. When you hit a wall, all the force/load is transfered though the suspension to the bulkhead. If the bulkhead is tied to the top decks it can transfer there and potentially tweak. I didn't really have a lot of trouble with my Photon tweaking but in Vegas we found that I tighen screws down a lot harder than everyone else in the team. Reguardless, the concept of the Evolution was to stop the transfer through the bulkhead to cause the tweaking. This is also why the bulkheads have a new shape that is much more solid and robust....
As far as production - The steel/aluminum that arrived looks amazing. Tolerances are great and everything should be awesome. As far as the carbon fiber, we have recieved new tooling just reciently that makes cutting the graphite a piece of cake now and we can adjust the graphite parts here in production if there is a tolerance issue. For example on our prototype oval cars for next year we have sunk in brass weights along the left side of the car. I designed them with a small tolerance and we cut the chassis. The production parts came in about .002" oversize on each end (about .005" total) so they were a bit snug in the chassis. I already adjusted the file and re-wrote the CNC program for it. Now they drop in with a perfect fit. Of course, there will always be an odd part of something that may be off but at least with handling the graphite here we can adjust and fix key items if there is something wrong and get it corrected immediatly. Also keep in mind - with the Photon it was super hard to control the tolerance of the steering plates, motor plate, mount plate and bulkheads to make everything the same height for the wings and top deck. Now we only have to worry about standoffs and the top plate mount being the same height. A lot of tolerance issues in a lot of parts completely eliminated with this...
As far as tweak testing - I'll let you guys be the judge but I crashed at the carpet nats... I took out the steering block, the castor block, rear suspension mount and rear hinge pin. I slammed the end of the straight. I came back, put on new parts, never did anything reguarding the tweak of the car and it was exactly the same back on the track. I have been extremely happy with this fact as I know this is a key complaint from racers out there.
I have to leave now (I was supposed to leave yesterday) for the oval race in TN. I will work on getting some graphite cut on Monday, cars built and pictures taken so everyone can see production. Honestly, I am so happy with the look of the parts I want to just stay home and cut/build em now. I think if everyone is impressed with the CAD images, they will be floored with the actual production pictures.
EA - I pay attention to all cars - good, bad and otherwise... I will gladly learn anything I can from anyone, anywhere without having all the pains of figuring it out myself...lol... Took me a while to figure out this motor mounting set-up as we all always look for the complicated/trick answer rather than the simple and easy one. This is just the start though... I still have a lot of tricks left up my sleeve....
As far as different versions of the chassis, we will probably make some either stiffer/softer depending on more testing and development. The production will be slightly stiffer than what I used in testing because of our new bulkheads and the motor mounting plates have a little more "coverage" on the chassis. When we are cutting the production next week I will be cutting several different materials also for further testing to begin immediatly but overall I am super happy with the car as it was at the Birds and Nats.
Still uses the 2.5mm screws for the camber plates. All the rest are 3mm now.
The reason to disconnect the motor plate, mount plate, top deck mount, bulkheads was to isolate tweaking points. When you hit a wall, all the force/load is transfered though the suspension to the bulkhead. If the bulkhead is tied to the top decks it can transfer there and potentially tweak. I didn't really have a lot of trouble with my Photon tweaking but in Vegas we found that I tighen screws down a lot harder than everyone else in the team. Reguardless, the concept of the Evolution was to stop the transfer through the bulkhead to cause the tweaking. This is also why the bulkheads have a new shape that is much more solid and robust....
As far as production - The steel/aluminum that arrived looks amazing. Tolerances are great and everything should be awesome. As far as the carbon fiber, we have recieved new tooling just reciently that makes cutting the graphite a piece of cake now and we can adjust the graphite parts here in production if there is a tolerance issue. For example on our prototype oval cars for next year we have sunk in brass weights along the left side of the car. I designed them with a small tolerance and we cut the chassis. The production parts came in about .002" oversize on each end (about .005" total) so they were a bit snug in the chassis. I already adjusted the file and re-wrote the CNC program for it. Now they drop in with a perfect fit. Of course, there will always be an odd part of something that may be off but at least with handling the graphite here we can adjust and fix key items if there is something wrong and get it corrected immediatly. Also keep in mind - with the Photon it was super hard to control the tolerance of the steering plates, motor plate, mount plate and bulkheads to make everything the same height for the wings and top deck. Now we only have to worry about standoffs and the top plate mount being the same height. A lot of tolerance issues in a lot of parts completely eliminated with this...
As far as tweak testing - I'll let you guys be the judge but I crashed at the carpet nats... I took out the steering block, the castor block, rear suspension mount and rear hinge pin. I slammed the end of the straight. I came back, put on new parts, never did anything reguarding the tweak of the car and it was exactly the same back on the track. I have been extremely happy with this fact as I know this is a key complaint from racers out there.
I have to leave now (I was supposed to leave yesterday) for the oval race in TN. I will work on getting some graphite cut on Monday, cars built and pictures taken so everyone can see production. Honestly, I am so happy with the look of the parts I want to just stay home and cut/build em now. I think if everyone is impressed with the CAD images, they will be floored with the actual production pictures.
EA - I pay attention to all cars - good, bad and otherwise... I will gladly learn anything I can from anyone, anywhere without having all the pains of figuring it out myself...lol... Took me a while to figure out this motor mounting set-up as we all always look for the complicated/trick answer rather than the simple and easy one. This is just the start though... I still have a lot of tricks left up my sleeve....