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Old 03-18-2010, 08:30 AM   #91
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Speed controls do not need to be hard to tech; I'm not sure just how this idea got started in the racing community.

We have been designing racing electronics for almost 32 years and we have never heard of a racer, or team driver, hacking into the micro code to change the controller's features. The solution to the speed control problem is actually very simple.

All ESC Manufacturers (who want to participate in this entry-level/spec segment) will offer a speed control with the following characteristics:

~ Stand-alone, identifiable brand
~ No external PC programming option
~ No built-in timing/boost
~ "Street Price" less than 100.00

These manufacturers will agree---and be held accountable---for the escs they manufacture for this spec segment. This is simple and doable by all mfgs within a few months. ESC designers can compete on low price and offering other options/features to make the best, low-cost controller possible for spec customer.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:44 AM   #92
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Here's what I have never understood. We never could adjust timing on Brushed, 27T Stock motors. Why has it been so widely accepted and approved now just because we're using brushless motors? Get the timing out of stock and you will see closer racing, slower speeds and your equipment will last longer. Another option, and this is thinking outside the box, why not take 17.5 1S Lipo? By reducing the voltage you'll reduce the speeds. This was part of how USVTA launched, or similar to, with 4-cell stock motors. And it did keep some of the faster guys out of the class because they felt it was too slow, but those who appreciated the idea of the class loved it.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:51 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BullFrog View Post
ROAR had people from difference areas of the country for several years on the electric on-road committee.Only the president did not like the way it was going and fired everyone. Now they have a new committee person(RSchurr). Maybe he could tell you who's on the committee and where they are from and what they are doing.

Here is a list of the active ROAR committees members (and their functions):
The list below does not include the technical advisors

Adam Drake, Fuel Committee
Andrew Mowery, EX Comm
Dave Kingston, Fuel Committee
David Larry R4, Regional Director
Dawn Sanchez, ROAR President
Doug McNeely, Fuel Committee
Ed Hill, EX Comm
Fred Hohwart, EX Comm
Gary O'Brien R9, Regional Director
JDCrow, EX Comm
Kendall Bennett, Fuel Committee
Mark Zitzlsperger R8, Regional Director
Mike Swauger, Fuel Committee
Paul King, Fuel Committee
Rich Browne, EX Comm
Rich Taylor, Regional Director
Ron DePoto R1, Regional Director
Ron Schuur, Electric Committee Chairman
Ruben Benitez, EX Comm
Steve Pond, Fuel Committee Chairman & Administrator
Tim Potter, Super Moderator
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:03 AM   #94
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Problem identified, 7 people on the fuel committe and only 1 representing electric committee!!
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:05 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by nihil View Post
Here's what I have never understood. We never could adjust timing on Brushed, 27T Stock motors. Why has it been so widely accepted and approved now just because we're using brushless motors? Get the timing out of stock and you will see closer racing, slower speeds and your equipment will last longer.
DING DING DING! We have a winner!

Why doesn't ROAR make a simple rule..Starting Jan. 1, 2011 NO TIMING ADVANCE of ANY KIND. Motor or ESC. No Boost controls. no turbo features. Just basic ole ESC's like we had 4-5 yrs ago.

That would get you back to slower classes, with SEPERATION amongst the 3.

We could go back to the simple days of 5-7 profiles on an ESC with NO EXTERNAL adjustablilty. In this rule ROAR could even set the MAX timing advance ( not sure if that is worded right, but the difference between profiles is what I am trying to say) allowed in the ESC. Just as we had a max timing in brushed motors.



Just because brushed tech. is gone that doesn't mean that some of the rules that were in place should be lost also.


I know that this maybe hard to get the "club/basher" type guy to give up his Tekin RS with 203 software at his local track or with his buds.

But at a ROAR race and at most of the Bigger races that follow ROAR rules this could be a win win for everyone.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Problem identified, 7 people on the fuel committe and only 1 representing electric committee!!
There is a reason for that.... you only need one person when your NATIONALS can't pull more than 38 entries in 9 classes. LOL


Truthful but funny.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
I for one do not like pan cars, so any races where I have to travel and spend thousands of dollars and get to race 1 touring class I'll skip.
i would love to see some races break out of the mold of running both pan and touring car classes at the same event. attendence is down, yes, but we keep talking about minimizing costs. i'm a bigger fan of working harder to increase the return on the investment, not minimizing the investment. (i know, it's the chicken or the egg argument). right now, we're doing the same old... but offering more and more classes to try to get some lazy dollars. that's run its course, and many racers who loved the big races in years past are feeling like it's all 'old hat' and not worth the money of the trip these days. been there, done that, right?

obviously, this isn't specifically a roar issue, but in the vein of making things better, we should start taking some responsibility for where we're at, and more importantly where we're going. maybe it's time to do things differently on a larger scale. it's definitely not a 'fix-all', but perhaps we're trying too hard to 'get back what we had' instead of building an even better scene in the future by adapting to the new technology (instead of controlling it).

adaptation in general. it's something each of us should ask ourselves how well we are at it on a personal level. from what i read here, most of us could afford to become better at it.

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Old 03-18-2010, 09:32 AM   #98
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Electric On-Road has too many classes, too many motor types, too many fuel sources (battery type/voltage), too many track types, and sizes, and too many skill levels of the the racers.

These are the same arguments we heard 4 years ago when we entered this great hobby/sport and I guarantee it is going to be the same 5 years from now.

For this discussion, I will concentrate on Electric 4wd Touring car using the GBS bodies.

It is in the best interest of ROAR and electric Touring Car racing that the motor/ESC be separated from the classes. Therefore, all this bickering will go away.

Different tracks require different speeds for the respective classes. For example:

Last week, my son ran a "super stock" race at R/C Madness (indoor/carpet with rubber tires). The speeds were blistering fast and a fast reaction time was needed. The effective straight away was about 70' and the average lane width was about 5-6'. We were running a 17.5 motor in a 17.5 class. We had the same racing experience as running our usual 13.5 on 100x40 carpet track.
Driving a real car 50 mph down a narrow city street with cars parked on both sides has the same relative speed effect as racing at 150 mph down a 4 lane highway.
Therefore, it is pointless of this thread and of ROAR to figure out and come up with a "average" specification for a motor type for each class that can be a blanket rule for all tracks and conditions throughout the country. Especially a ruling that can transcend more than 1 year.


Club racing
At the club race level, ROAR did a great job with the body, motor, tire, etc specifications. It should be up to the race director to spec what motor turn are to be run for the classes. The classes should not be named stock and superstock, but Sportsman and EXPERT. Sportsman uses a non-boost ESC and sponsored and factory racers are not allowed. Therefore if you have a battery, motor, or chassis sponsor - then sportsman is not for you. This ruling is retroactive. For example, if you raced for XYZ motor company who tuned 27T brushed motors 5 years ago, then you are not a sportsman. It should be a sense of pride if the race director asks a racer to move up because of their skill level, average lap times, or experience.

ROAR approved clubs and Regions are required to send a minimum of 2 racers per class to the Nationals. This will boost attendance at the nationals and the minimum attendance will always be met.

ROAR Regional and National Races
For ROAR sanction races where a Regional or National champion is crowned, then there is a SPEC class and an EXPERT class. The SPEC class will use a tamperproof serialized motor, ESC, and tires specified by ROAR under a 1 year contract. The motors and ESC will be removed by the ROAR tech inspectors and checked. The selected motor turn will be slow enough for today's sporstman/17.5 racer to enjoy. The SPEC class is open to all racers, sponsored or non-sponsored. The Region will be the Regional entry fee for the Nationals. The national winner gets a 100% chassis, motor, and battery ride and required to race EXPERT next year.

The EXPERT Class will be either 13.5, 10.5 or 8.5 depending on track size. Speeds and motor size will be determined where full throttle can not be applied in the majority of the corners and braking is required before entering the majority of the corners. This class is open rubber tire, open ESC.

Another focus of all these discussions should be on track and racing specifications, not motor and ESC classes.

European indoor race tracks for trophy races are huge with the minimum specification around the mod racer. DOT and burms are used, not boards and pipes. There is adequate run-off, not a dead end wall. DNF because of material breakage should not be tolerated for ROAR events. Over seas, the stock class is between 9.5 and 11.5. The outdoor tracks are like the US go-kart tracks. American indoor tracks are constructed with the wrong material and promote breakage at all speeds. Outdoor tracks should have a minimum specification like the Tamiya Track in Aliso Viejo, CA or Jackson R/C in Jackson, NJ.

ROAR on-road national races should be at the same location every year and during the same calendar dates. Sponsors outside of the hobby/sport should be entertained. For example Monster sport drink or Mazda car company. This will give R/C broad recognition.

Also a racer ranking system should be put in place. This will replace the need for a racer to seek sponsorship as a way to determine respect among his peers. There will be a regional rank and a national rank. You have to run the Regional and the National to participate in the ranking system.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:50 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
I do not think changing everything to 2 classes is going to fix anything, in fact I think it will hurt.

I for one do not like pan cars, so any races where I have to travel and spend thousands of dollars and get to race 1 touring class I'll skip and I think many will do the same. Look at the entries for the Nats next week, this exact scenario occurred. The normal people that would of run 17.5 and 13.5 touring just aren't bothering to go, I have my own reasons as I really don't run 17.5 unless I have to but telling someone they have to run a 12th scale car to run a second class is stupid. Some people don't want to run 12th scale or wgt or whatever. This is a hobby and we should be allowed to run whatever classes we may choose for the most part.
I had been planning to attend this year, but this is the Exact reason why I am not going this year...I race 17.5 and 13.5 at home and that is what I want to race out of town. Nothing like spending a bunch of money to race in one class.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:51 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by TeamB&B View Post
Electric On-Road has too many classes, too many motor types, too many fuel sources (battery type/voltage), too many track types, and sizes, and too many skill levels of the the racers.

These are the same arguments we heard 4 years ago when we entered this great hobby/sport and I guarantee it is going to be the same 5 years from now.

For this discussion, I will concentrate on Electric 4wd Touring car using the GBS bodies.

It is in the best interest of ROAR and electric Touring Car racing that the motor/ESC be separated from the classes. Therefore, all this bickering will go away.

Different tracks require different speeds for the respective classes. For example:

Last week, my son ran a "super stock" race at R/C Madness (indoor/carpet with rubber tires). The speeds were blistering fast and a fast reaction time was needed. The effective straight away was about 70' and the average lane width was about 5-6'. We were running a 17.5 motor in a 17.5 class. We had the same racing experience as running our usual 13.5 on 100x40 carpet track.
Driving a real car 50 mph down a narrow city street with cars parked on both sides has the same relative speed effect as racing at 150 mph down a 4 lane highway.
Therefore, it is pointless of this thread and of ROAR to figure out and come up with a "average" specification for a motor type for each class that can be a blanket rule for all tracks and conditions throughout the country. Especially a ruling that can transcend more than 1 year.


Club racing
At the club race level, ROAR did a great job with the body, motor, tire, etc specifications. It should be up to the race director to spec what motor turn are to be run for the classes. The classes should not be named stock and superstock, but Sportsman and EXPERT. Sportsman uses a non-boost ESC and sponsored and factory racers are not allowed. Therefore if you have a battery, motor, or chassis sponsor - then sportsman is not for you. This ruling is retroactive. For example, if you raced for XYZ motor company who tuned 27T brushed motors 5 years ago, then you are not a sportsman. It should be a sense of pride if the race director asks a racer to move up because of their skill level, average lap times, or experience.

ROAR approved clubs and Regions are required to send a minimum of 2 racers per class to the Nationals. This will boost attendance at the nationals and the minimum attendance will always be met.

ROAR Regional and National Races
For ROAR sanction races where a Regional or National champion is crowned, then there is a SPEC class and an EXPERT class. The SPEC class will use a tamperproof serialized motor, ESC, and tires specified by ROAR under a 1 year contract. The motors and ESC will be removed by the ROAR tech inspectors and checked. The selected motor turn will be slow enough for today's sporstman/17.5 racer to enjoy. The SPEC class is open to all racers, sponsored or non-sponsored. The Region will be the Regional entry fee for the Nationals. The national winner gets a 100% chassis, motor, and battery ride and required to race EXPERT next year.

The EXPERT Class will be either 13.5, 10.5 or 8.5 depending on track size. Speeds and motor size will be determined where full throttle can not be applied in the majority of the corners and braking is required before entering the majority of the corners. This class is open rubber tire, open ESC.

Another focus of all these discussions should be on track and racing specifications, not motor and ESC classes.

European indoor race tracks for trophy races are huge with the minimum specification around the mod racer. DOT and burms are used, not boards and pipes. There is adequate run-off, not a dead end wall. DNF because of material breakage should not be tolerated for ROAR events. Over seas, the stock class is between 9.5 and 11.5. The outdoor tracks are like the US go-kart tracks. American indoor tracks are constructed with the wrong material and promote breakage at all speeds. Outdoor tracks should have a minimum specification like the Tamiya Track in Aliso Viejo, CA or Jackson R/C in Jackson, NJ.

ROAR on-road national races should be at the same location every year and during the same calendar dates. Sponsors outside of the hobby/sport should be entertained. For example Monster sport drink or Mazda car company. This will give R/C broad recognition.

Also a racer ranking system should be put in place. This will replace the need for a racer to seek sponsorship as a way to determine respect among his peers. There will be a regional rank and a national rank. You have to run the Regional and the National to participate in the ranking system.
That was a great post! Thank you
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
...........
I would be more than willing to sit in on such an Electric On-road committee and yes I'm sure the result would be some flak as you can't please everyone, but I think the current rule changes or lack of in some instances, have more to do with the poor turnout at the carpet nats than does the economy.
I vote MillerTime president....

even though I still think you're a punk.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:09 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamB&B View Post
Electric On-Road has too many classes, too many motor types, too many fuel sources (battery type/voltage), too many track types, and sizes, and too many skill levels of the the racers.

These are the same arguments we heard 4 years ago when we entered this great hobby/sport and I guarantee it is going to be the same 5 years from now.

For this discussion, I will concentrate on Electric 4wd Touring car using the GBS bodies.

It is in the best interest of ROAR and electric Touring Car racing that the motor/ESC be separated from the classes. Therefore, all this bickering will go away.

Different tracks require different speeds for the respective classes. For example:

Last week, my son ran a "super stock" race at R/C Madness (indoor/carpet with rubber tires). The speeds were blistering fast and a fast reaction time was needed. The effective straight away was about 70' and the average lane width was about 5-6'. We were running a 17.5 motor in a 17.5 class. We had the same racing experience as running our usual 13.5 on 100x40 carpet track.
Driving a real car 50 mph down a narrow city street with cars parked on both sides has the same relative speed effect as racing at 150 mph down a 4 lane highway.
Therefore, it is pointless of this thread and of ROAR to figure out and come up with a "average" specification for a motor type for each class that can be a blanket rule for all tracks and conditions throughout the country. Especially a ruling that can transcend more than 1 year.


Club racing
At the club race level, ROAR did a great job with the body, motor, tire, etc specifications. It should be up to the race director to spec what motor turn are to be run for the classes. The classes should not be named stock and superstock, but Sportsman and EXPERT. Sportsman uses a non-boost ESC and sponsored and factory racers are not allowed. Therefore if you have a battery, motor, or chassis sponsor - then sportsman is not for you. This ruling is retroactive. For example, if you raced for XYZ motor company who tuned 27T brushed motors 5 years ago, then you are not a sportsman. It should be a sense of pride if the race director asks a racer to move up because of their skill level, average lap times, or experience.

ROAR approved clubs and Regions are required to send a minimum of 2 racers per class to the Nationals. This will boost attendance at the nationals and the minimum attendance will always be met.

ROAR Regional and National Races
For ROAR sanction races where a Regional or National champion is crowned, then there is a SPEC class and an EXPERT class. The SPEC class will use a tamperproof serialized motor, ESC, and tires specified by ROAR under a 1 year contract. The motors and ESC will be removed by the ROAR tech inspectors and checked. The selected motor turn will be slow enough for today's sporstman/17.5 racer to enjoy. The SPEC class is open to all racers, sponsored or non-sponsored. The Region will be the Regional entry fee for the Nationals. The national winner gets a 100% chassis, motor, and battery ride and required to race EXPERT next year.

The EXPERT Class will be either 13.5, 10.5 or 8.5 depending on track size. Speeds and motor size will be determined where full throttle can not be applied in the majority of the corners and braking is required before entering the majority of the corners. This class is open rubber tire, open ESC.

Another focus of all these discussions should be on track and racing specifications, not motor and ESC classes.

European indoor race tracks for trophy races are huge with the minimum specification around the mod racer. DOT and burms are used, not boards and pipes. There is adequate run-off, not a dead end wall. DNF because of material breakage should not be tolerated for ROAR events. Over seas, the stock class is between 9.5 and 11.5. The outdoor tracks are like the US go-kart tracks. American indoor tracks are constructed with the wrong material and promote breakage at all speeds. Outdoor tracks should have a minimum specification like the Tamiya Track in Aliso Viejo, CA or Jackson R/C in Jackson, NJ.

ROAR on-road national races should be at the same location every year and during the same calendar dates. Sponsors outside of the hobby/sport should be entertained. For example Monster sport drink or Mazda car company. This will give R/C broad recognition.

Also a racer ranking system should be put in place. This will replace the need for a racer to seek sponsorship as a way to determine respect among his peers. There will be a regional rank and a national rank. You have to run the Regional and the National to participate in the ranking system.

+1000...I tried to address the rookei sportsman and expert thing in another thread but this is a very nice idea...you thought about getting on with ROAR?
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:18 AM   #103
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My personal issue with open Forums is that most of the time you have NO idea who you are talking to. This is why, personally, I like the concept of a ROAR site where you use your given name and ROAR number.
Yes Yes Yes 100% agreement, we need to use website forums far more than this gossip channel. ROAR please note..........

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Old 03-18-2010, 10:27 AM   #104
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I race 17.5 and 13.5 at home and that is what I want to race out of town. Nothing like spending a bunch of money to race in one class.
not to attack you personally for the sake of it, but soley for use as a constructive example...

you are lobbying for two classes at a national event that are separated by .2/lap. to me, in a time where competition is light, that just seems completey selfish, and not for the good of the collective group. if you were to take yourself out of the equation, would you find a ton of logical arguments to support offering two classes differing by .2/lap? if you're running 13.5 why not just register for mod, and use your 13.5?

this example points out that a lot of the issues we're seeing are simply because people won't take a step back to let the industry take a step (or even two) forward. we're in a turbulent period of growth and adjustment. some flexibility would be helpful until we work it out. yet, most would rather retreat to the sidelines until someone other than themselves comes up with a solution that is deemed acceptable to them. (or worse, hang out on the field and taunt their own team).

i'm frequently reminded of a quote that gmail sends me just about once a week... it is as follows, "tough times never last, but tough people do". there is no doubt to me that the on-road crowd is in desperate need of some toughness right now.
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:55 AM   #105
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I agree, wseperate classes for 17.5/13.5 with today's Technology is just pointless. There should be a bigger step and likewise 21.5 and 17.5 are too close to consider 21.5 a viable stock option within a year.
25.5 - sportsman

17.5 or 13.5 prostock perhaps like B & B posted earlier decided by the track

and Mod is open

Another thought is perhaps 1/12 and T/C should be approached differently, the voltages are halved in 1/12 so what would apply with 2 cell lipo T/C may not be applicable to 1/12. Likewise every distinct genre may need its own guidelines for classification, 2wd dirt is not the same as 4wd T/C. Again this would be reason to have a representative who actually races a specific class, not just lumping electric all together.
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