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Old 03-18-2010, 12:19 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jeff Cuffs View Post
Ruben do u still race
YES!!!!!! I mainly run 12th and WGT. Personaly, I don't care for TC but have raced a ton of electric TC over the years as well. Always gravitate back to pan cars when the competition is there.

We saw the same increases in speeds when Tekin came out with the new 203 software. We basicaly saw an increase of .5 sec a lap in 12th 17.5 at our local carpet track. 17.5 TC had MADDD RIP!!!! We both do agree on one thing. Things need to slow down.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:23 AM   #77
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It's interesting to me that Dennis Storti asked about running a 17.5 class at Horsham with no timing advance ESC's, and nobody seemed interested. Yet it seems the guys there are all over the idea of doing a 21.5 class with open ESC. Why is that? Dennis' suggestion wouldn't have required anybody to spend additional money on a new motor, any old ESC would have worked fine, and the speeds would have been back to being manageable.

I'm beginning to think people actually like the ESC voodoo, 'cause if you spend enough time with it, you might be able to get faster on the track by sitting in front of your computer.





It seems like ROAR is taking a beating in this thread for not answering a question nobody's been able to answer. Going to slower motors is the quick and easy fix, and possibly what's needed right now to stop the bleeding. But it costs everybody money to keep racing how they were a few months ago, and there's no end to the ESC battle in sight. Are we really any better off for all this ESC magic now that things are too fast again, and everybody has to spend more money to go slower?


No with me owning a track i dont want to tech speedos and the guys are willing to buy motors. And then u have to deal with it speedo A in profile 1 is really 0 timing and so on.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:34 AM   #78
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No with me owning a track i dont want to tech speedos and the guys are willing to buy motors. And then u have to deal with it speedo A in profile 1 is really 0 timing and so on.
I understand completely. I don't own a track, but I'm a big part of running a permanent indoor track (club supported), and have been seeing and feeling the same pain experienced by others. Most people have shifted from 13.5 to 17.5 with the new ESC's, and it left people frustrated. First, everybody had to run out and buy a Tekin so they could keep up. Then, they all had to run out and buy a 17.5 so they could slow down. I didn't hear anybody talk about how great a time they had spending all that money to ultimately go the same speed they were racing before Christmas with their old gear.

So maybe the ship has sailed on limiting ESC's somehow, and it's too late to even consider it. But I'm sure any company that makes a firmware updatable ESC could release a version that locks the ESC into a spec profile, and anybody with an LRP could run on profile 1, and it could be pretty darn close. Maybe that's too hard to tech for big races, but for the tracks around the country trying to keep the doors open, finding ways to avoid forcing racers into spending more money for no benefit seems like a better direction to me.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:47 AM   #79
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Changing motor winds is really the easiest option. Its cheaper than esc's and batteries and easy to tech. Even if you (roar) think that 21.5 will be as fast as 17.5 or faster in a year, I'd be more than willing to buy another motor in a year. I think most guys don't have a problem with buying a motor for a year.

I also like the idea of stock and mod. You could still run novice/sportsman stock and expert stock.

A roar approved esc standard is an option, but I personally don't like it. I like on road because it is difficult and there is just endless adjustments in everything. Go ahead and call me a nerd. But the more fine tuning, the better. Not to mention that this latest advancement is much better for the motors. We are able to gear light and the motors come off cooler.

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Old 03-18-2010, 12:57 AM   #80
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Teching speedos as well...no thanks. I quite enjoy the speedo war anyway. It seems like people want a spec class....except without spec tires, motors, servos or kit

Also, I really don't think its too fast, then again, I started in 10th nitro TC at Revelation in Ontario. Sure...I broke....ALOT, but I enjoyed every minute of it.
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Old 03-18-2010, 03:26 AM   #81
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I know when I go to the local hobbyshops and someone walks in the door they don't ask how slow a car or truck will go.They don't ask about spec classes. Both the hobbyshop says what they want to hear -"How fast does it go".Been involve for many years- spec classes come and go so quickly.What they say here is one thing but trackside and at races is another.
ESC - Motors - lipo.
When the brushless stuff came out it was slower. But like everything else it got faster and people learned what to do.People learned what to do with the lipos. It took awhile but they learned. Now we have the ESC with a basic booster mode.You want track owner and race director to monitor what setting are on the esc- It will never happen.On the local level all anyone want to do is race.You add more stuff for the race director to look over you'll run them away. Most of the guys running the races are volunteers.Maybe they get there entry fee paid?
Maybe in a year after everyone has there speedo's out ROAR could come up with a new motor classification. But then as it's always been every thing gets faster regardless.
The economy is lousy- people are out of work and can't afford the new stuff.It's not only in R/C. I could tell you about a major name in the real world of racing on the Daytona Prototypes what they are planning. Guess what it's to expensive for them and they want to down grade into another class- it's cheaper.
Racing is alway expensive regardless of what you race- real cars or R/C. It's my hobby and that's what I do.If I want to race I'll buy it- if I don't want to race I won't.Now people have a choice - times are tough- look at the resturants during the week days and the weekends. It's not like it was before.And neither is R/C racing.Besides 95% plus that buy r/c are just backyard bashers and could care less about our rules..
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:28 AM   #82
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I don't think the problem with ROAR getting big turnouts is due to all the rules they have or have been making. It simply comes down to plain sexiness of the race.

You have SBirds and Vegas which are independently organized by people who have a vested interest in the race. These organizers obtain mfg sponsorship and find the resources to put on a great show with gifts, prizes, etc for the racers, therefore racers will set aside money for the event. These organizers just make the whole race appealing to the racer. Look at the big European races, all sexy races with mfg backing and resources to put on a great show.

I also think with the locations changing from year to year there are going to be various turnouts depending upon geography.

The goal for ROAR is to make these national races just like SBirds and Vegas. ROAR take a page out Scotty's book and put on a show that no one will want to miss.

Another thing I envision for ROAR one day is to have it's own facility to accommodate all various forms of rc racing. Like Indy or Daytona where racers need to make the journey to the rc racing mecca.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:30 AM   #83
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Has anyone spoken to the racers overseas or anyone involved in efra femca etc?

Has the turnout dropped off in the same way? Are they running into the same issues

Just wondering as most of the result for Euro/Asia races on redrc seem to have 2 classes only. Some sort of limited motor and open modified. Perhaps they are onto something with idea of less classes.

After starting,building and helping to run a nitro onroad track after years of running electric....I think their are just way to many electric classes. I know the arguement has been that the nitro tracks are huge so open is not a problem. But in reality you have racers of all skill levels running open class. You put in the hp you can afford or handle and go from that point.

It has not seemed to hurt the turnout at most nitro events. Just take a peek at how many people already signed up for nitro nationals.

Jeff you even mentioned that 17.5 is really close to mod in speed. Simplify it and just have an open class at large events and beginner class (something around 540 silver can speed) for club races. Perhaps having just one class based on chassis type would be a solution at national type events.

Just cause one can put a 4.5T in the car doesnt mean you must. I think that most people will put in the hp they can handle and now your are not at the mercy of new tech of the week be it motor or esc.

By limiting motor or speedo your just going to have to keep adjusting the rules every couple of months at technology marches on.

I dont have a solution only an opinion.

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Old 03-18-2010, 05:50 AM   #84
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Wow I go to bed and wake up to 6 pages to catch up on, good to see most of it is in the same direction.

ROAR needs representation from each type of racing, Reuben may have experienced but how connected is he to the different regions. Not dissing you Reuben, I've met you at a couple of the Nats I've attended, and you seem like you do care, but possibly an electric on road committe made up of electric racers from the the different parts of the country.

Motors and classes, ROAR says they are afraid to make people mad with changes too soon, so rather than slow a class down so 'sportsman' can drive it they force those with experience (some sponsor help) out and into a class that their not ready for, seems to have pissed off more people this way. From what I've seem 21.5 is almost as fast as 17.5 was back in October, with another advance in Technology it will still be too quick, might as well go 25.5 for 'Sportsman' and perhaps keep the silly sponsorship rule then 17.5 for 'Stock' or 'Pro-Stock' whatever you want to call it and then open Mod, and for what it's worth I know 3 or 4 of the top national caliber mod drivers would just as soon see it capped at 10.5 or 8.5 or something because 3.5 is just plain ridiculous on a short closed carpet track.

ESC Tech, might as well let it go, too hard to police and it will only open the doors to those thinking/knowing team guys have found away around whatever teching there would be.

I would be more than willing to sit in on such an Electric On-road committee and yes I'm sure the result would be some flak as you can't please everyone, but I think the current rule changes or lack of in some instances, have more to do with the poor turnout at the carpet nats than does the economy.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:25 AM   #85
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What ROAR needs are people willing to represent their areas and types of racing in some sort of organized way. All the new rules in the world won't mean a thing unless people are willing to step up and say why a particular rule isn't good and recommend a change, and do all this in an intelligent way.
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:06 AM   #86
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When we had Brushed motors and cells, didn't ROAR have a once a year approval process for those? Didin't the Motors have price caps??

Could ROAR do the same for ESC's?? That seems to be the root of the problem. Just about everyone posting is saying things are too fast.

The ESC's are advancing faster than any one can keep up with. I mean a year ago, did anyone here think that a $400 speedo was coming? Did you think you were going to have to take your laptop to the track EVERY RACE day??

It doesn't seem to be motor related as everyone knows your DUO 1 from 2 years ago is still faster than anything since.

Batteries seemed to level off, or are not growing as fast now.


I was told by a VERY well respected Factory Driver at the Paved on-road nats last year, That one of the Engineers for one of the ESC companies told them that in less than 2 yrs. if the advancement of ESc didn't get stopped. There would BE NO CLASS SEPERATION based on motors.

Guess what in less than 4 months from that statement..Look at the times Jeff posted from Snowbirds!


You make 21.5 or 25.5 or 40.5 the "Stock/intro. class" Someone is going to find a way to make it faster to WIN that class. Thats racing, So the cycle will only continue as it is going now. Those could however be "temp" fixes until a more concrete fix could be made, I guess.

Really glad I made the right choice (for me) after the Paved nats!
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:28 AM   #87
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This thread is going like hot cakes!

My .02 as a Ex-Roar member;

-Make a novice/ stock class so slow that no fast guy can handle running it.

-Bring a resurgence of modifed. If all you guys claim it's not any faster than your said stock classes, what are you worried about?!?

This kills so many birds with one stone it's crazy.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:02 AM   #88
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When we had Brushed motors and cells, didn't ROAR have a once a year approval process for those? Didin't the Motors have price caps??

Could ROAR do the same for ESC's?? That seems to be the root of the problem. Just about everyone posting is saying things are too fast.
When new nickel metal hydride cells were coming out once a month, the racers screamed bloody murder.

When ROAR instituted the once a year cell approval to minimize the cell of the month, the racers screamed bloody murder.

Brushed motors had price caps. Ask an old slot car racer why. Brushless motors also have price caps.

No ROAR cannot do the same for speed controls. It would be impossible to tech.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:14 AM   #89
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When new nickel metal hydride cells were coming out once a month, the racers screamed bloody murder.

When ROAR instituted the once a year cell approval to minimize the cell of the month, the racers screamed bloody murder.

Brushed motors had price caps. Ask an old slot car racer why. Brushless motors also have price caps.

No ROAR cannot do the same for speed controls. It would be impossible to tech.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:29 AM   #90
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ROAR had people from difference areas of the country for several years on the electric on-road committee.Only the president did not like the way it was going and fired everyone. Now they have a new committee person(RSchurr). Maybe he could tell you who's on the committee and where they are from and what they are doing.
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