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Old 03-17-2010, 11:31 PM   #61
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BTW,
ROAR Took IMMEDIATE action regarding the Black Diamond Speedo following the IIC event.

The Race Teams using it were told it could not be used in Stock Classes at the ROAR Events held shortly after IIC.

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Old 03-17-2010, 11:31 PM   #62
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Hot damn, Ruben and JD Crow are here too.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:32 PM   #63
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I do not think changing everything to 2 classes is going to fix anything, in fact I think it will hurt.

I for one do not like pan cars, so any races where I have to travel and spend thousands of dollars and get to race 1 touring class I'll skip and I think many will do the same. Look at the entries for the Nats next week, this exact scenario occurred. The normal people that would of run 17.5 and 13.5 touring just aren't bothering to go, I have my own reasons as I really don't run 17.5 unless I have to but telling someone they have to run a 12th scale car to run a second class is stupid. Some people don't want to run 12th scale or wgt or whatever. This is a hobby and we should be allowed to run whatever classes we may choose for the most part.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:35 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rich Browne View Post
I understand about the advancement in speedo's - the advancements aren't over, either.

ROAR's dilemma - technology is advancing so quickly, we are scrambling for solutions that make sense. What was sensible 6 months ago - makes no sense now. Bob Ingersol and I were talking at the Fuel Sedan PreWorlds, in Texas, about this exact topic he commented that at one point the motor manufactures said a year ago they couldn't even make a 21.5 wind motor - guess what - yes, they can.

Yes what was sensible 6 months ago is sensible now change the motors in the classes to be there proper speeds. I own a carpet track and see peoples frustrations when they cant handle there cars at todays speeds.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:37 PM   #65
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Larry ...... I've been an electric on road racer for neqrly 15 years, helped put on the first 4 Reedy Races at it's original home Ripon RC Speedway, owned an on road carpet track, Stockton RC Raceway and hosted 2 ROAR on raod carpet nationals, 2001 and 2006. Too say there's no one that's an electric on roader, you can't get any more electric on road than that. As it's been said here before a lot of people with a lot to say about a subject they no little about, gets really frustrating and you wonder why we don't like to answer questions on this forum???
Ruben do u still race
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:41 PM   #66
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I'll do my best to answer questions as well. I will not answer questions to those just using a screen name. Want questions answer use your real name.

Jeff ..... there has been discussion on what to do and a lot of ideas are being tossed about and a lot of track testing has been happening. You say 21.5 is what should be the "stock/sportsman" motor. That has been discussed and is being tested. The biggest problem with 21.5 is if we see another advancement in ESC's like we did this past winter then 21.5 won't be slow enough again. What ever change we make it needs to be one that will last longer than one season or at least have a hope to last longer than a single season. I also know that 25.5's, 21.5's with LiFe as well.

As far as what needs to be expert/super stock, I really see 17.5 ending up as the motor wind of choice for that class. Anything and everything else will be mod.

As far as your comment about the speedo changes happening last September. That was one esc and nobody knew if and when anything was going to catch up to it. Would you suggest we make rules outlawing a single mfrs product?

I think we also need to have some sort of a SPEC esc/motor combo as the power source for "sportsman/stock". Something that all the esc mfr's can agree to. Something that can be teched easily, even at the club level. Possibly a retail $$$$ limit. A spec that all esc mfr's could agree to and build too. Add to that a locked timing motor and we're pretty much back to brushed days when you just worried about gearing.

We're definitely not dragon our feet. We're investigating and doing our homework, we want to make sure that what ever we come up with is the right choice for our current, future and potential members. If we we drug our feet as many will say you never would have gotten 1s Lipo, BL or lipo in general.

We're not perfect but we're trying really hard to make good, educated and thought out decisions and changes for the betterment of RC racing for ALL.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:45 PM   #67
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Let me tell you something Jeff, if you change everything on a dime there will be even more screaming and crying. I took on running the trans am association (USVTA). We changed motor and esc specs, and gave everybody a *9* month lead time. I have never heard so much complaining in my life. Do you think that if after the vegas race they said "guess what? 21.5 is the new stock/sportsman/whatever" would we not have a 50 page thread on how dumb ROAR is to change motors? I would rather have some measured decisions on this.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jeff Cuffs View Post
The issues arent with the speedo its with the class structuring after all advancements in the speedos
Hmmm....Jeff, how did 17.5 get too fast? wasnt it at a good pace until the new generation speedos came to market.

So you dont think the Speedo Advancements to come wont make 21.5 faster as well?

Then what?

The drop in participation of electric onroad has been troubling to me as well. Every effort we make to slow the pace, while requested to provide a solution, is immediately lambasted. For example, we made a change to drop FOAM tires and go with a harder rubber compound which would only provide so much grip. Then it didnt matter how much power, boost, cheater modes you applied at the speedo/motor, you only had so much grip. And we were flammed.

Ive been around it since 1987. And its not just an issue we are battling in the US. Every Race Sanctioning Organization is looking for solutions to enable innovation in technology, keep the racing exciting, make the vehicles less intimidating for new racers (everyone thinks they should win a major event by just walking into a hobby shop and buying a car), and at a pace that keeps them involved.

Frankly, Im ready to just move the national events to open motor and stop all the division of vehicles by motor.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:50 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by schurcr View Post
I'll do my best to answer questions as well. I will not answer questions to those just using a screen name. Want questions answer use your real name.

Jeff ..... there has been discussion on what to do and a lot of ideas are being tossed about and a lot of track testing has been happening. You say 21.5 is what should be the "stock/sportsman" motor. That has been discussed and is being tested. The biggest problem with 21.5 is if we see another advancement in ESC's like we did this past winter then 21.5 won't be slow enough again. What ever change we make it needs to be one that will last longer than one season or at least have a hope to last longer than a single season. I also know that 25.5's, 21.5's with LiFe as well.

As far as what needs to be expert/super stock, I really see 17.5 ending up as the motor wind of choice for that class. Anything and everything else will be mod.

As far as your comment about the speedo changes happening last September. That was one esc and nobody knew if and when anything was going to catch up to it. Would you suggest we make rules outlawing a single mfrs product?

I think we also need to have some sort of a SPEC esc/motor combo as the power source for "sportsman/stock". Something that all the esc mfr's can agree to. Something that can be teched easily, even at the club level. Possibly a retail $$$$ limit. A spec that all esc mfr's could agree to and build too. Add to that a locked timing motor and we're pretty much back to brushed days when you just worried about gearing.

We're definitely not dragon our feet. We're investigating and doing our homework, we want to make sure that what ever we come up with is the right choice for our current, future and potential members. If we we drug our feet as many will say you never would have gotten 1s Lipo, BL or lipo in general.

We're not perfect but we're trying really hard to make good, educated and thought out decisions and changes for the betterment of RC racing for ALL.

The problem i have with what you are saying is sometimes a short term fix is better then no fix for a long time.

Roar is making these way more complicated then it needs to be change the motor for the classes. Dont worry about batteries right now thats the best thing going for us right now. I leave the same pack in my car and dont take it out all day. No need for li fe pack just making us spend more money for chargers and batteries. Change the motors and it will be astep in the rigt direction
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
Let me tell you something Jeff, if you change everything on a dime there will be even more screaming and crying. I took on running the trans am association (USVTA). We changed motor and esc specs, and gave everybody a *9* month lead time. I have never heard so much complaining in my life. Do you think that if after the vegas race they said "guess what? 21.5 is the new stock/sportsman/whatever" would we not have a 50 page thread on how dumb ROAR is to change motors? I would rather have some measured decisions on this.
Bro its been over 6 months and still nothing has changed except people leaving on road.
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:56 PM   #71
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Hmmm....Jeff, how did 17.5 get too fast? wasnt it at a good pace until the new generation speedos came to market.

So you dont think the Speedo Advancements to come wont make 21.5 faster as well?

Then what?

The drop in participation of electric onroad has been troubling to me as well. Every effort we make to slow the pace, while requested to provide a solution, is immediately lambasted. For example, we made a change to drop FOAM tires and go with a harder rubber compound which would only provide so much grip. Then it didnt matter how much power, boost, cheater modes you applied at the speedo/motor, you only had so much grip. And we were flammed.

Ive been around it since 1987. And its not just an issue we are battling in the US. Every Race Sanctioning Organization is looking for solutions to enable innovation in technology, keep the racing exciting, make the vehicles less intimidating for new racers (everyone thinks they should win a major event by just walking into a hobby shop and buying a car), and at a pace that keeps them involved.

Frankly, Im ready to just move the national events to open motor and stop all the division of vehicles by motor.

Yes everything gets faster thru technology but the 21.5 is the right choice for stock NOW and has been the right choice for the last couple months. The rest i really dont understand
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:09 AM   #72
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Thats great because in today standards unless they released new speedos lrp and ko arent on pace with tekin black diamond or castle. Throw a duo 1 17.5 and a tekin in your car pm for settings and get back to us when u cant believe what a 17.5 feels like and thats roars answer for a sportsman class.
Jeff ...... I've seen the same thing. 17.5 is now as fast as 13.5. But don't you think racers would be quitting if ROAR jumped into a quick decision, changed winds say last month or 2 months ago, and then we get that next big jump in esc tech that mfr's say is most likely going to happen again this year, and we have to change again???? Isn't that going to upset racers and having them quitting??? This is a slippery slope we're on. I don't have the answers, and quick rash reactions aren't always the best decision either. What ever move happens next it needs to be a long term solution. One that will have some overhead room for increases in esc speeds and one that one force members to have to make large $$$$ investments to stay in onroad racing.

Believe me when I say I'm concerned. I don't like what I see and I'd like nothing more than to see the on road electric glory days of 5 years ago, but our problems in on road electric go deeper than just speeds. What race today in onroad is so newbie unfriendly. There is no class or vehicle offering in onroad like the Slash that captures the masses. Until then we'll continue to see low numbers and high turnover rates. Onroad is complicated, technical and time intensive to be competitive and in today's instant gratification society it's hard to beat a $300 Slash that you can just throw down and get hooked. Let's just hope some of those guys learn the real joy of on road electric racing
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:14 AM   #73
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Just to keep things in context for our ROAR folks tuning in, the racers are looking to you as a sanctioning body to make changes for the betterment of racing, and right now, speeds are getting out of hand. However, lets be frank here, the Carpet Nationals was effectivly killed off by the idea of the "Sportsman, no sponsor class." Maybe this decision was made based on the scuttlebutt seen on RCtech about sponsored drivers in the stock classes and the frustration over that, I dont know, just speculating here. However, "opinion" on Stock drivers being sponsored is only "opinion", "facts" are that cars are way too fast for a 90 foot carpet track. It may be that the next measure of too fast is whether cars are breaking the sound barrier or not.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:14 AM   #74
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It's interesting to me that Dennis Storti asked about running a 17.5 class at Horsham with no timing advance ESC's, and nobody seemed interested. Yet it seems the guys there are all over the idea of doing a 21.5 class with open ESC. Why is that? Dennis' suggestion wouldn't have required anybody to spend additional money on a new motor, any old ESC would have worked fine, and the speeds would have been back to being manageable.

I'm beginning to think people actually like the ESC voodoo, 'cause if you spend enough time with it, you might be able to get faster on the track by sitting in front of your computer.





It seems like ROAR is taking a beating in this thread for not answering a question nobody's been able to answer. Going to slower motors is the quick and easy fix, and possibly what's needed right now to stop the bleeding. But it costs everybody money to keep racing how they were a few months ago, and there's no end to the ESC battle in sight. Are we really any better off for all this ESC magic now that things are too fast again, and everybody has to spend more money to go slower?
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by schurcr View Post
Jeff ...... I've seen the same thing. 17.5 is now as fast as 13.5. But don't you think racers would be quitting if ROAR jumped into a quick decision, changed winds say last month or 2 months ago, and then we get that next big jump in esc tech that mfr's say is most likely going to happen again this year, and we have to change again???? Isn't that going to upset racers and having them quitting??? This is a slippery slope we're on. I don't have the answers, and quick rash reactions aren't always the best decision either. What ever move happens next it needs to be a long term solution. One that will have some overhead room for increases in esc speeds and one that one force members to have to make large $$$$ investments to stay in onroad racing.

Believe me when I say I'm concerned. I don't like what I see and I'd like nothing more than to see the on road electric glory days of 5 years ago, but our problems in on road electric go deeper than just speeds. What race today in onroad is so newbie unfriendly. There is no class or vehicle offering in onroad like the Slash that captures the masses. Until then we'll continue to see low numbers and high turnover rates. Onroad is complicated, technical and time intensive to be competitive and in today's instant gratification society it's hard to beat a $300 Slash that you can just throw down and get hooked. Let's just hope some of those guys learn the real joy of on road electric racing

I disagree with you. Making changes to at least show that roar is trying to do something is better then doing nothing. Honestly it doesnt need to be so difficult.
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