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Old 03-19-2010, 10:22 PM   #241
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Sportsman Class

Tamiya Mini Cooper. RTR Edition only. No alum option parts. Spec Pinion Gear. Spec Kit Grooved Tire. No double Stuffing Insert for the tires. Spec 2300 mAH LiPo. Spec'd Max Motor RPM at x.x Volts

Claimer Price $200 (Receiver and PT not included in Claimer)
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:24 PM   #242
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I've got mine ready to go JD - where are you racing?!?!

This is on dirt oval right?

Side dams allowed?
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:36 PM   #243
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If you run sidedams, Im running my Blitz LM....

My SC8 and SC4x4 SCT's are waiting on SP stuff....wink nod, nudge nudge.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:45 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Palmer View Post
So what do you propose as a solution Joe?

Its too easy to shoot holes in everyone else's thought process - that's not what we're here for. We're listening - talk to us.
It appears that the most popular suggestions in this thread seem to be:

1) Go to higher wind motors (21.5, or 25.5??). This allows people to use the batteries, chargers, ESCs, etc. that they currently have, but slows the class down. No new chassis designs needed. No voltage boosters needed. USVTA is already going down this road (with 25.5 motors starting in the fall).

2) Fixed timing ESCs. Or special, easily teched firmware with fixed timing for those ESCs that are firmware upgradable. Maybe only for Sportsman class.

3) Fixed timing motors. This would require stringent specs to make the motors from different vendors as close as possible.

4) Some combination of 1, 2, and 3.

That's fine for slowing down stock and sportsman classes. To pull in the new racers, we need some manufacturers to step up and offer a reasonably priced RTR that is legal for sportsman (or even stock) class. Something like a Slash for the on-road crowd, but with a legal brushless motor/ESC combo. The HPI Flux 2 and TC4 RTR are close, but the motor supplied isn't legal. Xray makes the T2R Pro which could be a solid beginner kit (add a motor/ESC combo). Novak is offering Havok combos that are reasonably priced. I'm sure that other vendors could produce a legal combo as well.

Does this mean that Sportsman class is synonymous with VTA or RCGT? Maybe. Does this mean that the fixed timing motors or ESCs are only for Sportsman? Maybe. Stock could be any ESC, and either 21.5 or 17.5 motors. And then Mod is Open class (any motor you feel comfortable driving, just like it is now).

Then, the ranking system linked to by robk could be implemented as well. This would provide a clear, defined structure for moving up the ladder. Sportsman wouldn't allow sponsored drivers.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:47 PM   #245
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But on a serious note.......

Why not just go to a harder compound rubber tire for Stock. No tire conditioners/softening allowed.

Not as firm as drift tires, but extended run tires.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:19 PM   #246
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All of these crazy rules are just blowing my mind and are totally unnecessary...

Lets keep it simple

Sportsman (no sponsored drivers): 21.5 motors
Stock: 17.5 motors
Mod: any motor (Only class ran at the national event level)

Speed controls simply won't matter if you limit the power of the motors. Yes things will get faster, but that has been the natural progression of racing since the dawn of time. In mod the speedo has never been a factor...always goes back to the power of the motor.

I am sure you will all find a way to pick this apart..so have at it. Nothing is going to change unless we find an easy solution. The more complicated the rules the harder it will be to get newer people into the hobby.


Agreed with everything but lets take the 21.5 sportsman a little further. No timing advance esc, realistic body and no dish wheels.

Close racing, affordable electronics and body's that replicate REAL cars. This class should be all about drawing new people in the hobby. This formula works for the shortcourse/class. Why wouldn't it work for onroad.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:58 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCrow View Post
But on a serious note.......

Why not just go to a harder compound rubber tire for Stock. No tire conditioners/softening allowed.

Not as firm as drift tires, but extended run tires.
Nothing discourages people more than loose, ill-handling cars. Rubber cars are already too hard for most people to setup.
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:28 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
It appears that the most popular suggestions in this thread seem to be:

1) Go to higher wind motors (21.5, or 25.5??). This allows people to use the batteries, chargers, ESCs, etc. that they currently have, but slows the class down. No new chassis designs needed. No voltage boosters needed. USVTA is already going down this road (with 25.5 motors starting in the fall).

2) Fixed timing ESCs. Or special, easily teched firmware with fixed timing for those ESCs that are firmware upgradable. Maybe only for Sportsman class.

3) Fixed timing motors. This would require stringent specs to make the motors from different vendors as close as possible.

4) Some combination of 1, 2, and 3.
Even though I from another country that ROAR doesn't control, here's my opinion.

1) Higher wind motors is the way to go. Below should explain why I think this.

2) How can you be sure all "spec ESC's are equal? Are we not far from having an even playing field again? Tekin, MMP, LRP, GM and AE-BD are all very close right now. SP, TW and maybe Novak will be up there with them very soon. Some of those are not very expensive and many racers already have one. Cheapest solution is to use what you already have. Surely the the most rapid phase of ESC development is nearly over? So the issues of recent times(ESC of the month having such a clear advantage) may well never happen again to the same extent.

3) Fixed timing as you said will be very hard to spec. If the motors can be torn down, they can be tweaked. How about we enforce a maximum allowed motor temp? Easy to spec and if enforced, everyones motors will last longer!

4) Maybe a combination of 1 and 3.
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Old 03-20-2010, 05:49 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
It appears that the most popular suggestions in this thread seem to be:

1) Go to higher wind motors (21.5, or 25.5??). This allows people to use the batteries, chargers, ESCs, etc. that they currently have, but slows the class down. No new chassis designs needed. No voltage boosters needed. USVTA is already going down this road (with 25.5 motors starting in the fall).

2) Fixed timing ESCs. Or special, easily teched firmware with fixed timing for those ESCs that are firmware upgradable. Maybe only for Sportsman class.

3) Fixed timing motors. This would require stringent specs to make the motors from different vendors as close as possible.

4) Some combination of 1, 2, and 3.

That's fine for slowing down stock and sportsman classes. To pull in the new racers, we need some manufacturers to step up and offer a reasonably priced RTR that is legal for sportsman (or even stock) class. Something like a Slash for the on-road crowd, but with a legal brushless motor/ESC combo. The HPI Flux 2 and TC4 RTR are close, but the motor supplied isn't legal. Xray makes the T2R Pro which could be a solid beginner kit (add a motor/ESC combo). Novak is offering Havok combos that are reasonably priced. I'm sure that other vendors could produce a legal combo as well.

Does this mean that Sportsman class is synonymous with VTA or RCGT? Maybe. Does this mean that the fixed timing motors or ESCs are only for Sportsman? Maybe. Stock could be any ESC, and either 21.5 or 17.5 motors. And then Mod is Open class (any motor you feel comfortable driving, just like it is now).

Then, the ranking system linked to by robk could be implemented as well. This would provide a clear, defined structure for moving up the ladder. Sportsman wouldn't allow sponsored drivers.
This seems to be a pretty complete snapshot of the last 17 pages, and the majority opinion.

Sportsman 21. or 25.5 with fixed timing cans, non adjustable profiles, non sponsored drivers

Pro-Stock 17.5 or 13.5, everything as is, these speeds are currently drivable and where the current masses of experienced drivers feel comfortable

Mod open or maybe a limit, I've talked to some of the best mod drivers in the country and they all say it is too fast but they can do it, the level of parts breakage, general wear, and ability to control are to excessive to expect the current "stock" guys to jump into. If stock goes to 25.5 and there is not an intermediate pro-stock step we will likely loose a lot of exsisting racers.

As for reducing the battery capacity, perhaps not a bad idea, 1000mah is likely too low but I generally put 2200-2400 back in my packs so what if you dropped the max down to 2500-3000 even if it does not slow things now it may prevent the speeds from getting faster.

And this should happen in a timely manner so everyone could be ready before the next season hits, most of the issues stem from carpet road course so address those classes first make a decision, post it by mid to late summer, and come fall every one can gear up for their perspective classes.
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:09 AM   #250
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3.7v sedan is a easy cheaper option that works very well.

From what we already know 21.5 is very close to 17.5 for track speed and the idea that a group if racers has to repower motor, speedo or both is very hard. Many already cycle batts.... Even lipos get cycled for fresh packs.

We have been running a 17.5 3.7 v sedan based class for about a year now. It is our largest growing class. Easy to balance the chassis(esc and batt on same
side), tires and handling are a level that all can drive. Electronics are the same as 1/12 and 1/10 pan cars. All parts are easy and available.

Throw a open mod in and they are wicked fast and humans can still drive them..
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:15 AM   #251
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1s 17.5 tc seems interesting. I have heard several people shocked at the prices of 2s packs when coming into this hobby. 1s slows things down and makes things cheaper.
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:43 AM   #252
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I like the ideas being purported for the sportsman stock/pro stock and mod classes...I still think that having a rookie class (the mini class proposed at the top of the page has promise) that way new guys have someplace where they can get in on the ground floor and be able to run with guys of relatively equal ability and then as they go through workshops and learn about their cars and get better they can move up as I outlined a number of pages ago. I think also having a end of the year "national championship" for them would also give them a nice carrot to shoot for and give the guys moving up to sportsman a chance to go out with a bang.
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Old 03-20-2010, 09:39 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by JDCrow View Post
But on a serious note.......

Why not just go to a harder compound rubber tire for Stock. No tire conditioners/softening allowed.

Not as firm as drift tires, but extended run tires.
I like this idea. you could also allow some bigger wings or something to help offset the loss in traction.
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:02 AM   #254
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then the guys that like to drift will become the new king of the hill in TC and we will start a thread complaining about that
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Old 03-20-2010, 10:03 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ammdrew View Post
3.7v sedan is a easy cheaper option that works very well.

From what we already know 21.5 is very close to 17.5 for track speed and the idea that a group if racers has to repower motor, speedo or both is very hard. Many already cycle batts.... Even lipos get cycled for fresh packs.

We have been running a 17.5 3.7 v sedan based class for about a year now. It is our largest growing class. Easy to balance the chassis(esc and batt on same
side), tires and handling are a level that all can drive. Electronics are the same as 1/12 and 1/10 pan cars. All parts are easy and available.

Throw a open mod in and they are wicked fast and humans can still drive them..
I like this idea, any youtube videos out there for us to watch??
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