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Old 03-19-2010, 01:57 PM   #211
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Zake540:
We thought exactly that about 12th scale (no one wants extra complexity, extra cost) just before 12th single cell exploded and demanded to be in the rulebook as such. I though just the same as you about it in 12th, but I was wrong - lesson learned, mind opened!

Zake and Carbon:
The problem with going further and further up on motor winds is this:
The more winds, the thinner the wire
The thinner the wire, the more delicate the motor is
the more delicate it is, the easier it is to blow it up.

We're at the point already where one wrong setting value on your ESC will cook your motor in a lap or two. Higher turns only magnifies that. In my mind, making it easier/more likely to blow stuff up doesn't get us heading in the right direction for lowering racer costs and encouraging new participation.

Carbon:
Yes, 1s will result in lower min weights, as well as a slew of interesting new TC designs to make the most of it, depending on how it's implemented and what we hear from the chassis manufacturers.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:00 PM   #212
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How about making the regionals actually mean something. Take the top 10-20 or more from each class to qualify for the nationals. You could also use the regional results for rankings.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:02 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
Absolutely.


With most of the current TC designs, people will have a hard time making weight and balancing the car with a 1s LiPo. Will we need new TC designs to make this work, or would the minimum weight for TC change again to help this out? Now we will also need Rx packs or Voltage boosters in TC (I know that 1/12 scale already has this issue).

Wouldn't just changing the motor be a lot easier? We don't have the short lived NiMH lifespan to justify scrapping our perfectly good, existing 2s LiPos. If more vendors produced a motor design like the Novak Ballistic, it would be a simple fix to swap out the stator to a higher wind.
I'd rather just swap a motor as well and not have to deal with boosters etc. The only clean solution I could think of for 1s is the batt manufacturers using current 2s packaging and compartmentalizing the case so the unused space could be packed with ballast. That also might reduce the number of weights getting scattered all over the track whenever there is a wreck. I've never had a battery apart so that might not even be feasible.

I think a couple people already said making a easily techable non-programmable inexpensive speedo is possible. Why not just apply that to the current 17.5 class and let the the other classes have at it? The initial cost of the esc isn't a bad investment if the rules stay consistant and the esc can later be sold to someone entering the class. If the rules are abandoned six months in we just have another esc paperweight.

Just my .02.
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:49 PM   #214
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Seems the one constant in RC......people always complaining about ROAR....

At least I know much hasn't changed since coming back from my vacation:P


Later EddieO
Welcome home Eddie, seems that little post you made years ago warning us of the timing wars as come true.

come on down to FW, I'll buy you lunch
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:52 PM   #215
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Hey Rich, apparently you and I missed out on the "smoke filled room" days of ROAR - I think someone owes us some cigars!
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Old 03-19-2010, 02:55 PM   #216
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If i ran 1s and then added a 1200 7.4 lipo as a booster, wouldn't i be pretty much back at weight. or close to it, and no dumping. as a matter of fact I'd be willing to build such a TC.

Shawn, pm me or email a drawing of how to wire it and I'll do it.

(cause i haven't paid attention to all the other threads showing how to do it)
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:14 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
How about making the regionals actually mean something. Take the top 10-20 or more from each class to qualify for the nationals. You could also use the regional results for rankings.
not a bad idea...although with 12 regions (based on ROAR's map) that's 120-240 racers per class and even with four classes that is anywhere from 480-960 racers total...Im sure something could be worked out to tie regionals and nationals together but it needs to be done with logistics in mind
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:18 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by chensleyrc1 View Post
How about making the regionals actually mean something. Take the top 10-20 or more from each class to qualify for the nationals. You could also use the regional results for rankings.
+1 on this thought, and my .02...

I’ve been reading through all of this over the many months of discussion throughout R/C Tech and have an idea on how to make sense of everything. The people of ROAR, and/or whoever else maybe, create a survey thread (on here or the ROAR service) surveying racers with the many thoughts/questions/ideas that have come through here. Maybe even start a thread for people to voice their thoughts/questions/ideas titled and based to build this survey. A well built survey can provide great feedback if designed and reported right…

Building on the thought of chensleyrc1, what if you had a pool of the following classes: stock and mod foam TC, stock and mod Rubber TC, and stock and mod 1/12; and offered any combination of these classes at all regional races, and a house class(s). Also, whatever standards are set to define the differences in these classes, I remember when the difference between stock and mod was around 1.0-1.2 seconds per lap. From there take the top qualifiers (whatever number) from each regional, eligible to race at the nationals in a “Championship” class. You could also make particular classes offered at other big races (ex: IIC, Birds…) and/or particular legs of series races (ex: NEGS) qualify for this “Championship” class too. Giving racers, hopefully, plenty of chances and opportunity to qualify.

If you race in this “Championship” class at the nationals, you can’t race in basic stock or mod, and vice versa, with one exception of mod. It kind of sounds like old school Cleveland rules where stock, 19 turn, and mod were offered, but if you raced mod, you couldn’t stock, but everyone could race 19 turn. This idea just adds qualifying for this 19 turn class. This puts meaning on qualifying and attending a regional event, or other qualifier, and if you can’t attend, you can still attend the nationals and race with other racers with similar talent levels, even if not racing in the “Championship” class. You could even base heat set up on all regional results…This “Championship” class could be a third class in addition to a stock and mod, so top stock and mod qualifiers from each regional could all race together. Hopefully this way really good racers that qualify regionally, race in the “Championship” class, and lower qualified regional racers still race stock, or mod respectively, however it gets structured…

I think that’s all I am trying to get across and I hope this is meaningful input to everyone.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:30 PM   #219
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I'm just a club racer and don't race big events but I've noticed that a lot of tracks (even if they aren't "ROAR" tracks) depend on ROAR's rules. Don't like the rules? Blame ROAR and not the track. How convenient and bad position for ROAR...

Regarding 1S LiPo: Considering Shawn's statement about higher winds and thinner wires, I think if I had to buy something new whether it be a new motor or battery, it'd be a LiFe battery...if the costs could come down a bit...supposedly safer too. Oh the uproar that would cause
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:35 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
the only thing that made me hesitant on shawn's list is the single cell sedan idea. sedans are always going to weigh more and have more drag than pan cars. by making the fuel tank the same size, the sedans will either, go much slower, or last half the duration.

looking at the tracks that each are most suited for, it would make more sense to me to have more fuel available to the larger car, which is intended to run on larger circuits. we can do whatever we'd like, but i don't think that making sedan slower than pan cars will allow us to do anything remotely close to something like this in the real near future:

yes, i have a mild obsession with how tc is done overseas, but c'mon. what we do with sedans over here is bush league (no wonder it's dying). we have one or two decent asphalt races (none of which have been the roar nats) and we close up shop for the indoor scene where we explode our cars on 2x4's and kick and scream that it's too fast. tc has gone to rubber here now. yet we're going to continue to use 2x4 tracks and watch them climb walls when we're an inch off our mark? i think we're missing the boat. then again, maybe i'm the only one who even wants to set sail ....

none the less, my proposed solution might be to leave the rip at 7.4 or maybe go to li-fe for tc. we're finally at a time where mod has more power and runtime than you can even put down on the track... and we want to bring it back to making a class where we're cycling batteries for run time, and swapping rotors and timing and all that jazz to squeeze out a 6 minute run w/o dumping or melting?? i dunno. that sounds a lot like spec racing to me, save for the throttle jockeying.

i can be convinced otherwise, but if the argument is that 13.5 is already too fast for our 90x40 tracks, i'm not going to be swayed. are the guys running the ets races having problems blowing out tires and whatnot with 7.4v? i could believe it, but over here it seems like a pretty rosey picture.

someone told me the tc worlds are coming here in 2012. if this is true, are we planning on stretching out the 2x4's again? maybe get a whopping 100ft straight for these guys. that'll be a proud moment.
I like everything you are saying here Seaball.....

The problem isn’t the cars or the speed it’s the size of the tracks and what we use to make up our tracks. This is the same problem that Todd Hodge raised just before his departure from On-road. The cars are too fast for what most of us race on.

Maybe there should be a set of rules for the size of the tracks? A track with a 60ft- 80ft straight will have a max motor usage of say a 17.5 motor....a track with a 80ft to 100ft would have a max usage of 13.5....a track that’s over 100ft can use any motor it chooses....i.e. mod. Then with these set motor limits there would only be two classes per car type....i.e....Sportsman and Expert. If you have any sort of sponsorship at all you can’t run in sportsman you have to race in expert. This way now you won’t have 3 classes for each type of car....just two and then you would be racing it out with a motor package that’s suits that track.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:44 PM   #221
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Maybe there should be a set of rules for the size of the tracks? A track with a 60ft- 80ft straight will have a max motor usage of say a 17.5 motor....a track with a 80ft to 100ft would have a max usage of 13.5....a track that’s over 100ft can use any motor is chooses....i.e. mod.
+1 on this...

I also am a fan of what Seaball says about scraping to make runtime in mod...I was always thrilled that drivers in mod could be a second faster than stock, and last the whole race and when the ave racer tries it, could be only a few tenths off, but last 75% of the race. That really showed driving talent...
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:44 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
the only thing that made me hesitant on shawn's list is the single cell sedan idea. sedans are always going to weigh more and have more drag than pan cars. by making the fuel tank the same size, the sedans will either, go much slower, or last half the duration.

looking at the tracks that each are most suited for, it would make more sense to me to have more fuel available to the larger car, which is intended to run on larger circuits. we can do whatever we'd like, but i don't think that making sedan slower than pan cars will allow us to do anything remotely close to something like this in the real near future:

yes, i have a mild obsession with how tc is done overseas, but c'mon. what we do with sedans over here is bush league (no wonder it's dying). we have one or two decent asphalt races (none of which have been the roar nats) and we close up shop for the indoor scene where we explode our cars on 2x4's and kick and scream that it's too fast. tc has gone to rubber here now. yet we're going to continue to use 2x4 tracks and watch them climb walls when we're an inch off our mark? i think we're missing the boat. then again, maybe i'm the only one who even wants to set sail ....

none the less, my proposed solution might be to leave the rip at 7.4 or maybe go to li-fe for tc. we're finally at a time where mod has more power and runtime than you can even put down on the track... and we want to bring it back to making a class where we're cycling batteries for run time, and swapping rotors and timing and all that jazz to squeeze out a 6 minute run w/o dumping or melting?? i dunno. that sounds a lot like spec racing to me, save for the throttle jockeying.

i can be convinced otherwise, but if the argument is that 13.5 is already too fast for our 90x40 tracks, i'm not going to be swayed. are the guys running the ets races having problems blowing out tires and whatnot with 7.4v? i could believe it, but over here it seems like a pretty rosey picture.

someone told me the tc worlds are coming here in 2012. if this is true, are we planning on stretching out the 2x4's again? maybe get a whopping 100ft straight for these guys. that'll be a proud moment.

I like what you are saying can I subscribe to your blahg?

Seriously though when is someone going to step up and have a real Euro style carpet race here in the us. A track that is 160x90 where mod laptimes are in the 18 second range like the ETS races?

One thing I love about Roar is the fact they run Triple A mains, ALL BIG RACES SHOULD FOLLOW THIS FORMAT. Its lovely we race all week have 4 tries at qualifying and get peeled on the first lap from behind int he main an the last 4 days mean nothing.

ALL big races should be qual points also. I know this may hurt a guy like me but I think it would help us all be better racers. Roar should change all onroad races back to this format including the carpet nats.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:54 PM   #223
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The problem with going further and further up on motor winds is this:
The more winds, the thinner the wire
The thinner the wire, the more delicate the motor is
the more delicate it is, the easier it is to blow it up.

We're at the point already where one wrong setting value on your ESC will cook your motor in a lap or two. Higher turns only magnifies that. In my mind, making it easier/more likely to blow stuff up doesn't get us heading in the right direction for lowering racer costs and encouraging new participation.
However, new batteries, new fixed ESCs, and new 1s LiPo specific chassis == big expense. You're basically trashing everyone's existing batteries and chassis, instead of just a motor (which, of course, could still be used in the faster classes).

I don't see many 21.5 motors burning up in VTA races. I've seen a *lot* more motors fried in 17.5 and 13.5 classes.

While the wire may be thinner, the higher wind motors also draw a lot less current. I'd like to get some feedback from Novak and from those who have tested the new Novak 25.5 motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Palmer View Post
Yes, 1s will result in lower min weights, as well as a slew of interesting new TC designs to make the most of it, depending on how it's implemented and what we hear from the chassis manufacturers.
But of course, all of these new chassis == big expense. Do we really want to alienate all of the existing racers by causing most of their existing equipment to be obsoleted overnight? Some of the most popular chargers over the past 4 years (Duratrax ICE and Checkpoint TC-1030, and LiPo capable GFX) don't charge LiFE, so a move to that battery chemistry also means new chargers for a lot of racers.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:58 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by seaball View Post
yes, i have a mild obsession with how tc is done overseas, but c'mon. what we do with sedans over here is bush league (no wonder it's dying). we have one or two decent asphalt races (none of which have been the roar nats) and we close up shop for the indoor scene where we explode our cars on 2x4's and kick and scream that it's too fast. tc has gone to rubber here now. yet we're going to continue to use 2x4 tracks and watch them climb walls when we're an inch off our mark? i think we're missing the boat. then again, maybe i'm the only one who even wants to set sail
The Europeans manage to run mod even on the tight tracks. Although can you imagine this track with 2x4's? I think you're on to something here.

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I'm still firmly in scrubville based on my big-race performances, but... I raced 17.5 on a 96x42 track last night (typically I run 13.5, and have been practicing with 5.5) and it felt like a giant turd. Driving strapped everywhere and having to keep the car an inch from the boards? Man, you can keep it. There are so many guys out there far better than myself that seem obsessed with going slower. Guys that get parts for cheaper or free. I don't get it.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:59 PM   #225
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I think this would help the local racing also. Rotate the regional from track to track within the region. And make it a requirement to run the nationals. That way local tracks get a turn at hosting, and all the racers pro and sportsman will have to show for the regional to go to the national.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhartman03 View Post
+1 on this thought, and my .02...

I’ve been reading through all of this over the many months of discussion throughout R/C Tech and have an idea on how to make sense of everything. The people of ROAR, and/or whoever else maybe, create a survey thread (on here or the ROAR service) surveying racers with the many thoughts/questions/ideas that have come through here. Maybe even start a thread for people to voice their thoughts/questions/ideas titled and based to build this survey. A well built survey can provide great feedback if designed and reported right…

Building on the thought of chensleyrc1, what if you had a pool of the following classes: stock and mod foam TC, stock and mod Rubber TC, and stock and mod 1/12; and offered any combination of these classes at all regional races, and a house class(s). Also, whatever standards are set to define the differences in these classes, I remember when the difference between stock and mod was around 1.0-1.2 seconds per lap. From there take the top qualifiers (whatever number) from each regional, eligible to race at the nationals in a “Championship” class. You could also make particular classes offered at other big races (ex: IIC, Birds…) and/or particular legs of series races (ex: NEGS) qualify for this “Championship” class too. Giving racers, hopefully, plenty of chances and opportunity to qualify.

If you race in this “Championship” class at the nationals, you can’t race in basic stock or mod, and vice versa, with one exception of mod. It kind of sounds like old school Cleveland rules where stock, 19 turn, and mod were offered, but if you raced mod, you couldn’t stock, but everyone could race 19 turn. This idea just adds qualifying for this 19 turn class. This puts meaning on qualifying and attending a regional event, or other qualifier, and if you can’t attend, you can still attend the nationals and race with other racers with similar talent levels, even if not racing in the “Championship” class. You could even base heat set up on all regional results…This “Championship” class could be a third class in addition to a stock and mod, so top stock and mod qualifiers from each regional could all race together. Hopefully this way really good racers that qualify regionally, race in the “Championship” class, and lower qualified regional racers still race stock, or mod respectively, however it gets structured…

I think that’s all I am trying to get across and I hope this is meaningful input to everyone.
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