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Old 02-24-2010, 08:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
Yes, I know that Randy was very upfront about 199. I have been reading, but I'm only up to page 525 (started at page 1 ... OMG, only 300+ pages to go ).

It doesn't really matter. It's just another point to add to the discussion. When people someone voices their opinion that BD wasn't being fair because of availability - and Tino's point about Team drivers, the situation with 199 came to mind - and as you may recall, some racers felt they were shorted because they were not able to get 199.
Well, the point is not valid in this case. Randy told us they were working on a new software and that it had bugs which needed to be sorted out before a release, otherwise a lot of people would have ended up with fried motors. So you see, they were not trying to get some trophies against their own market segment as you would have seen recently at the ETS where the SXX stock spec was only available to the team drivers.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:10 PM   #47
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Well, the point is not valid in this case. Randy told us they were working on a new software and that it had bugs which needed to be sorted out before a release, otherwise a lot of people would have ended up with fried motors. So you see, they were not trying to get some trophies against their own market segment as you would have seen recently at the ETS where the SXX stock spec was only available to the team drivers.
Trophies against their own market? I wasn't thinking that at all. It was a simple matter of some had turbo (and there was a work around to avoid frying your motor!) and some did not. That was my only point.
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:35 AM   #48
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:40 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
As a nitro racer, I know that all nitro engines are not created equal. Some people have bigger budgets and can afford the more expensive engines such as Novarossi and Max Power - or some of the highly accalimed modified engines. Some people just don't want to spend that much money on an engine, even if they do have a bigger budget. We don't go complaining to racing officials that the other guy has a more expensive or faster motor if we know that he is running his car within the rules. That's just the way it is.
It's not right to use nitro racing as an analogy. When getting into nitro racing, you fully know what you are getting into. Of course you won't go complaining to race officials because again, you KNEW the deal when you stepped in. There is no stock class or spec class(motor wise) that I know of in any of the nitro classes in on or off road. You get the best that you can afford and fortunately you can almost be as fast as the guys with high $$ engines with the right choices. To use an analogy, electric Mod class comes to mind. Top of the heap, no higher.


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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
When I read about people getting upset about other racers' ESC being faster or having special features to make their cars go faster - and this "banning ESCs/features" thing, I don't quite understand what the big deal is. If "fairness" were at the very heart of the issue, then shouldn't everyone be racing the same car with the same gear? (i.e. identifical) But we all know that's just ridiculous.
The classes that most have issues about "timing/boost" ESC's are Stock classes. Again, you knew what you were getting into(before the timing/boost wars) and expected somewhat equal speeds/performance from your brushless motor/ESC compared to your competition to keep racing close. The "timing/boost" advances that made dramatic speed increases blew "Stock" out the window. That is the big deal.
With Mod, you could run any motor, and any ESC(a Havoc would probably be just as good as a RS Pro). The determining factor here would be the question.."Can You Handle It?!"


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If it's all about the money, then would creating economy/budget classes make sense for those that can't keep up with the newest technology? I get the impression that people won't go for something like this!
Our track's Silvercan class is popular. Our track also just recently implemented the "17.5 no timing/boost" class.


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As with cars, there comes a point when the older technology has to make way for the new and some of these older ESCs are going to have to move from the racing category to the bashing category. Is that such a bad thing?.
No it's not a bad thing, but why rush it?


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I can accept the fact that if I don't have the latest and greatest technology, that I'm going to be slower, so why can't everyone else?
You won't know until you actually start racing electric, Stock especially.


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When I see people using the word "cheating" - when they know very well that someone is racing within the stated rules, it just makes me cringe.
LOL! Maybe a certain ESC maker should change "Cheat Mode" to a different mode name in their Pro ESC.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:51 AM   #50
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Trophies against their own market? I wasn't thinking that at all. It was a simple matter of some had turbo (and there was a work around to avoid frying your motor!) and some did not. That was my only point.
It's a vicious circle really, without development, we wouldn't have what we do now... Someone has to test it, or nothing gets tested.

There will always be points in development like that...

There are good and bad points to being a team driver for any sponsor.

Some might say its good to have a newer version of software before anyone else - but in this case with 199, it was known to have bugs and this could for example, cost you a race result...

And being a team driver, you would have to put that down to experience and move on from it in a mature way, not bash the product or throw a hissy fit...

Sponsorship isnt just about free or discounted product, or having the latest out there...
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:57 AM   #51
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A lot of the disagreement in the other thread is people have different, conflicting ideas of what "stock" class is.

Some people think its for new racers starting out. Which would be wrong, thats what novice class is for.

Others think it should be a cost controlled "spec" class, which is wrong as well because in a "spec" class everybody runs the same equipment.

And some think it is just a "slower than modified" class, which today's current stock class pretty much represents with constantly developing technology, unlimited costs, and professional drivers.

Nitro racing is all "modified" class and then seperates by skill level, simple and effective. Electric racers over-think the issue.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:28 PM   #52
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It's not right to use nitro racing as an analogy.
That's what I know.

As I try to better understand electric racing and why it "is what it is", I'm at a disadvantage because I wasn't there in the beginning, so I don't understand the origins of electric racing, how it has evolved over the years and how the electric side of the house ended up with so many people running in so many different classes. Some nitro clubs run a novice class, but for the most part it's all mod as has been mentioned.

When I started casually looking into on-road electric racing a few years ago (well before RWH opened), I didn't realize that people who were running 13.5 and lower actually ran other classes as well. Now that I'm getting more into this, I'm asking myself, "What's the point?" If you're in your comfort zone running 13.5 and lower, the only thing you're doing by running in those other classes is getting in more play time and not really giving those whose skill level matches the speed a chance to win.

If I were an electric race director (and I know everyone is thankful that I'm not), I would say that everyone gets to enter one class per scale and that's it. Not that you get to bring 4 TCs to the track and run stock, 17.5, 13.5 and mod. Yes, it's possible to do that, but if someone is good enough to run mod, what the heck are they doing running in the lower speed classes? The only way I would say it's okay to run like this, is if the 13.5 and lower guys compete in any class they want on another day of the week.

But the reality is, electric racing "is what it is" and either you're happy with the way things are structured and run at the local, national and global level - or you're not.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:44 PM   #53
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Our track also just recently implemented the "17.5 no timing/boost" class.
So how was 17.5 no timing/boost? Did a lot of guys run that class?
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:02 PM   #54
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It's a vicious circle really, without development, we wouldn't have what we do now... Someone has to test it, or nothing gets tested.
Agreed. It's too bad that factory guys don't have a racing league of their own, so they can test and race all the latest prototypes they want without having a technological advantage over the average guy on the street.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
So how was 17.5 no timing/boost? Did a lot of guys run that class?
There was only 1, would have been 2 but, he had to go off island. We ran him in the boosted class but he was scored seperately. There will be more eventually, you just need to come out to the track and check it out for yourself. Almost all of the top drivers run 13.5 and a few run both 17.5 and 13.5. Me I only run 13.5 as I enjoy a relaxing time at the races.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:44 PM   #56
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I think a very simple solutions is to have 2 basic classes

1. A truspec class where it's all spec'd out, including the battery. A good example of this is the new Truspec class being started by OC Circuit and ABC Hobbies. But I think a spec battery will need to be added to the formula also.

2. An open class, done deal, with maybe a tire spec which is a great equalizer IMO. What ever works best for you is what goes, but it doesn't have to cost the moon to be competitive.

It's so much cheaper to go faster with a mod motor then mucking about with ESCs and monster batteries. The only reason programmable ESCs and monster batteries came along was due to motor limits in the classes.

I think the advent of this techno war will be the return in popularity of the mod class as more people understand it.

At least these are my viewpoints.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
When I started casually looking into on-road electric racing a few years ago (well before RWH opened), I didn't realize that people who were running 13.5 and lower actually ran other classes as well. Now that I'm getting more into this, I'm asking myself, "What's the point?" If you're in your comfort zone running 13.5 and lower, the only thing you're doing by running in those other classes is getting in more play time and not really giving those whose skill level matches the speed a chance to win.
One thing to remember is that those with lower skill levels also enter faster classes too. Also, there will always be the "fast" guys and the "slow" in each given class and thats where the mains(A, B, C......) come in.


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"What's the point?"
I race for the thrill of the race, and mostly for the fun of it. If I enter more than one class then yes, it is for more "Play" time, but I also see it as "Wheel" time. Is it fair if my skill level is a little higher than some in a "Stock" or "Spec" class?...I say YES. Heck, it gives them something to shoot for.

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:31 AM   #58
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Default Sensorless Motor on a Sensored/Sensorless ESC

Sorry to digress. Which ESC can operate both Sensored and Sensorless motor, more importantly does not have cogging problems when on Sensorless motor. Open to any comments.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:57 AM   #59
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Agreed. It's too bad that factory guys don't have a racing league of their own, so they can test and race all the latest prototypes they want without having a technological advantage over the average guy on the street.
You could have for example though, a very experienced racer who isnt full factory. Where do you draw the line?

And, for example, do you put all xray full factory drivers in one race, Tekin full factory in another, or put them all in together... does the guy using a new xray car have more of an advantage than say, a guy who has the latest hotwire release, etc etc...

I've raced for about 15 years, been into sedan/touring car since the first tamiya cars hit the UK, had two sponsorships last year, one this year, but never likely to see a factory drive in my entire r/c life.

In some ways I like your thinking, but on road isnt a clear cut class in some respects.

Full factory guys have usually earnt their position in a team, it didnt come overnight.

Some people lower down in the rankings of sponsorship might call it unfair that the factory "A" guys get the newer stuff before its filtered down into the lower B or C etc team guys, and then out for the public...

it's all one big food chain!

I don't look at sponsorship that way, just giving you an example. There's always going to be someone out there that can beat you one day or another... regardless of your own skill level.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:49 AM   #60
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One thing to remember is that those with lower skill levels also enter faster classes too. Also, there will always be the "fast" guys and the "slow" in each given class and thats where the mains(A, B, C......) come in.

I race for the thrill of the race, and mostly for the fun of it. If I enter more than one class then yes, it is for more "Play" time, but I also see it as "Wheel" time. Is it fair if my skill level is a little higher than some in a "Stock" or "Spec" class?...I say YES. Heck, it gives them something to shoot for.
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