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Old 02-03-2010, 10:12 AM   #1
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Default Non timing brushless ESCs - all equal?

With organizations (USVTA comes to mind) implementing and considering for their spec, stock, or beginner programs going to non timing brushless speed controls such as the Novak GTB, Havoc, LRP Ai, upcoming Speed Passion Cirtix etc., the new can of worms (or not, hopefully) is whether all of these speed controls are equal.

Or are some "more equal" than others?
Even if the software isn't user adjustable, it's still software. Is it possible that one manufacturer's non timing adjustable software will be faster than another's, creating a "my non timing ESC is faster than yours" situation?
In other words, will a new, slower kind of ESC war break out?
Has anyone done any kind of testing to see if they're all equal?

oh the humanity
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:30 AM   #2
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Not really the point. The goal isn't total equality....it's more a matter of a "reasonable" performance difference that doesn't give a good driver total dominance over lesser skilled drivers with smaller wallets. And that's a segway to the other aspect of this discussion....cost. Performance is one thing but its a moot point when there's nobody buying rc cars and that revolves alot around cost. A driver recently posted a situation that spells it all out. A young man and his father looking to get involved were totally interested and very excited......until the racer made a HUGE mistake. Based on what HE perceives as the NORMAL requirements for equipment...he spewed out some rather large dollar numbers and , in hindsight, saw the parent and his son visibly shaken by the high cost.
How many times does this scenario have to happen before we realize there has to be a balance. Lower performance/cost classes that are considered more of the mainstream vs. those that remain a minority and should only be looked at as the highest level of the hobby instead of the norm.
I've said this before but " we DO NOT market ourselves well". RCGT for instance has become an abomination compared to it's original intent. What seemed to be designed as a "stand alone" program has become nothing but, in the words of many drivers, another form of TC class.
VTA is the only group that's trying to maintain their independance and uniqueness. Good on Ya VTA.

Last edited by Evoracer; 02-03-2010 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:36 AM   #3
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^^^^+1 DUDE!
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchy View Post
With organizations (USVTA comes to mind) implementing and considering for their spec, stock, or beginner programs going to non timing brushless speed controls such as the Novak GTB, Havoc, LRP Ai, upcoming Speed Passion Cirtix etc., the new can of worms (or not, hopefully) is whether all of these speed controls are equal.

Or are some "more equal" than others?
Even if the software isn't user adjustable, it's still software. Is it possible that one manufacturer's non timing adjustable software will be faster than another's, creating a "my non timing ESC is faster than yours" situation?
In other words, will a new, slower kind of ESC war break out?
Has anyone done any kind of testing to see if they're all equal?

oh the humanity
It would be impossible to police -- or at least very very difficult.

One way to ensure all "non-timing" ESCs to be equal is to get rid of sensors -- then the ESC manufacturers would be forced to approx. 20 degrees of maximum timing. The way a sensorless works, it is much much more difficult to screw with timing. This also prevents racers from "retiming" the sensors in the motor. Without sensors, the timing will be limited to a very small window (right around the maximum efficiency point, not the maximum power point) without any possibility of reclocking.

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Old 02-03-2010, 10:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchy View Post
With organizations (USVTA comes to mind) implementing and considering for their spec, stock, or beginner programs going to non timing brushless speed controls such as the Novak GTB, Havoc, LRP Ai, upcoming Speed Passion Cirtix etc., the new can of worms (or not, hopefully) is whether all of these speed controls are equal.

Or are some "more equal" than others?
Even if the software isn't user adjustable, it's still software. Is it possible that one manufacturer's non timing adjustable software will be faster than another's, creating a "my non timing ESC is faster than yours" situation?
In other words, will a new, slower kind of ESC war break out?
Has anyone done any kind of testing to see if they're all equal?

oh the humanity


Actually there is no non timing brushless esc,
but there is Fixed timing brushless esc.

and if all of those brushless esc had fixed timing brushless esc
there would be no equal, some factory may
set different fixed timing.

So adjustable timing on esc is the most equal.

and any brushless esc user is deserve to learn
to do its best timing performance.

So simply Fixed timing will not result fair and equal.

i might be wrong.
.
.
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:22 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdelcast View Post
It would be impossible to police -- or at least very very difficult.

One way to ensure all "non-timing" ESCs to be equal is to get rid of sensors -- then the ESC manufacturers would be forced to approx. 20 degrees of maximum timing. The way a sensorless works, it is much much more difficult to screw with timing. This also prevents racers from "retiming" the sensors in the motor. Without sensors, the timing will be limited to a very small window (right around the maximum efficiency point, not the maximum power point) without any possibility of reclocking.

Patrick del Castillo
President
Castle Creations
That's very interesting. Thanks for your concise reply, Patrick!
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:55 AM   #7
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Default TeamNovak USVTA Program:

Goal:
~TeamNovak is offering a comprehensive program designed to attract more customers to the R/C Hobby and more participants to USVTA series racing by providing an affordable solution for entry-level events

Products:
Three 25.5 BL systems (not combos) customized for USVTA series (currently unavailable thru distribution.)
~ blue/teal motor sleeve installed
~ sensored motors designed/built to ROAR specs
~ RMF items

Pricing:
Lowest price offered to customers for our Havoc 2S/SS Pro BL Spec, sensored systems; (current "street price is 149.99.)
~ 129.99 USVTA member price (guaranteed for 12 months)

On-Line Store:
Separate Vintage Trans Am section in our on-line store; Novak will maintain a minimum quantity of systems and service items/optional accessories in the store to fulfill members' orders quickly.
~TeamNovak USVTA Store

Upgrade path for VTA Members:
Replacement/exchange program enhanced to allow VTA participants to upgrade to other products.
~SS Pro motors (and all other "S code" BL motors) may be upgraded to a Ballistic 25.5 for a fixed price
~Havoc Pro added to GTB exchange

Customer Service/Technical Support
Products for this series include same warranty (120 day), customer service and technical support as all Novak products.
~Novak will maintain an RC Tech thread for series members' questions; TeamNovak / USVTA
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:04 PM   #8
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Ok, I'll bite. But only to further discussion and because I'm bored at work

Not really the point. The goal isn't total equality....it's more a matter of a "reasonable" performance difference that doesn't give a good driver total dominance over lesser skilled drivers with smaller wallets.

I dunno, I thought that was the point! If the equipment WAS all equal, drivers will need to blame something other than their ESC, their crappy driving perhaps. I thought the unequal ESCs and the need to buy the latest just to be competitive was the cause of all the recent concern. But the “point” notwithstanding, you think racers don’t care which “X” product is better than which? If I see everyone going to this type of racing, and I’m going to buy myself a new ESC to participate (btw I own two Tekins and two GTBs for frame of reference), do you think I won’t do some kind of research to find which one is best? You bet I will! If I use my GTB and find that the LRP or Speed Passion or whatever is yanking me on the straight everything else being equal, I’m going to think about getting that ESC! I don’t claim to know everything about this hobby or industry, but I have worked at a hobby shop before. Almost every time, people will ask, “What’s the best X product?” They rarely will ask, “What’s the cheapest X product that still fits under the rules? I don’t care about performance”


And that's a segway to the other aspect of this discussion....cost. Performance is one thing but its a mute point when there's nobody buying rc cars and that revolves alot around cost. A driver recently posted a situation that spells it all out. A young man and his father looking to get involved were totally interested and very excited......until the racer made a HUGE mistake. Based on what HE perceives as the NORMAL requirements for equipment...he spewed out some rather large dollar numbers and , in hindsight, saw the parent and his son visibly shaken by the high cost.

If it’s a MOOT point, and nobody’s buying cars anyways, then we are preaching to the choir. Believe me, the choir cares. This seems to be more prevalent in on road though, where equipment (like ESC, battery and motors) matters so much more.

How many times does this scenario have to happen before we realize there has to be a balance. Lower performance/cost classes that are considered more of the mainstream vs. those that remain a minority and should only be looked at as the highest level of the hobby instead of the norm.

The nature of racing, I suppose. I do agree with you though. Whether the majority of the racing public does enough to do anything about it is anyone’s guess.

I've said this before but " we DO NOT market ourselves well". RCGT for instance has become an abomination compared to it's original intent. What seemed to be designed as a "stand alone" program has become nothing but, in the words of many drivers, another form of TC class.

I’ve read some of your posts on the RCGT thread and agree to an extent. But what has happened to RCGT in your area to become an abomination and what did you want HPI to do about it? The original intent was to have realistic looking touring cars and to have fun with it. If RACERS turn it into just “another form of TC class,” as is always the case when things get competitive, who’s responsibility is it to get it back to what it was? Case in point, the short course truck craze. In the beginning with the Slash, it was all fun and people had a ball bashing their trucks and each other, laughing on the stand. Then people got competitive, arguing over whether diff oil was stock, whether to let the SC10 in, etc. etc. Not intentionally, the racers cause this. It’s not any one manufacturer’s fault or responsibility to control what the racers do. It’s the racer’s with a bit of help with their organization or racing facility.

VTA is the only group that's trying to maintain their independance and uniqueness. Good on Ya VTA.

If the VTA formula is the way to go for you and your racers, I say go for it! Do what makes you happy
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:05 PM   #9
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Said it before and worth saying again. Way to go Novak !! I wish the RCGT gods would make the hard decision and do the same thing with 21.5, 17.5 or both. (RCGT expert 17.5/ RCGT sportsman 21.5).
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:19 PM   #10
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hence we got SP bringing us a product line like this:

http://www.speedpassion.net/en/highl...tails.asp?h=13

I wonder how affordable it will be.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:20 PM   #11
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This is a good topic...and was something that came to my mind when I saw the Speed Passion ESC on RedRC today.


Who knows if they will be equal...I think that answer will be flushed out soon enough. I hope the VTA people allow more than one spec ESC combo in their ranks. What I also like is that the price is also kept down. $150 or less combos are a great deal. (but if your driving a $500 TC does it really matter )

Not sure what the future holds...but will we see "Sportsman" classes all be no timing/usb programmable combos only?
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:30 PM   #12
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Said it before and worth saying again. Way to go Novak !! I wish the RCGT gods would make the hard decision and do the same thing with 21.5, 17.5 or both. (RCGT expert 17.5/ RCGT sportsman 21.5).
We, here at Novak, would be delighted to work with series directors in setting up similar programs to the one I have outlined above.

Because we manufacture (and RMF) our products here in Irvine, and have have comprehensive trade-in programs already designed and in place, we are able to quickly tailor programs to suit the needs of series directors who wish to initiate cost-controlled events.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:45 PM   #13
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Stitchy, hope the answers are entertaining.
1. My statement referred to "Total" equality. Nobody's looking for Utopia here and you're right...some drivers will always find something to blame not winning on. The current discussions about ESC's exist primarily because of the large disparity in performance. This starts at the upper skill levels but is , unfortunately, filtering down to all of us mere mortals. More importantly it's been having negative effects on classes that were never meant to have major performance differences. RCGT and VTA in particular but also "stock" TC.
2.Buying which esc is best?? Best for what?? How many drivers using the Black Diamond do you think are actually good enough to fully exploit it?? Most of the reason for high end esc purchases is because of the mindset to many drivers have and are willing to express as the gospel to others. "If you want to be competitive then you have to have this ESC" or "This brand ESC just won the most races at the Snowbirds...it's obviously the one to get".
3.'Nobody buying cars' was a cautionary statement. Bottom line...if we don't provide some unique classes to get new drivers into and also provide for those not interested in spending big money...then the rc car segment of the hobby suffers. Thanks for the spelling correction.
4.As for RCGT...currently the only class our club does BUT....even our small club is seeing the result of the ESC war. How do we grow when we can't offer a reasonable level of performance and cost to prospective members ? The problem here is my perception of RCGT vs. yours. I thought RCGT was a class designed to attract people via less investment cost, slower more visible speeds, more realism. To achieve that meant a departure from the excepted norms of Touring class. In other words...a "stand alone" class.
5.As for my affection for VTA....I appreciate that VTA officials took a hard stand for the betterment and longevity of the program. I believe in what I thought RCGT was supposed to be. If I'm wrong then I'll put all my efforts somewhere else. I have also commented that there needs to be a governing body for RCGT. I assumed that would be HPI but ....as of now it appears nobody is really running the show.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:58 PM   #14
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Thanks for that, Evo. Sent you a PM to discuss RCGT further. I do know where you're coming from but this thread isn't really about that. It's about whether the ESC's that are supposed to be equal really are.

NovakTwo, thanks for your input as well. Can you tell me though, that between the GTB, Havoc, Slyder and XBR speed controls (VTA legal per new rules) if their performance is the completely the same? Or are the differences really imperceptible? In other words, if I hook up the same motor to a GTB and Havoc, will I get the same results?

Maybe only time will tell...
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:10 PM   #15
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Kill the rabbit!!!

Here's my take. Yes, some will be more "equal" than others. You can only get close to equal performance if you spec right down to the nut and bolt. This is no different than any other r/c war from the past. 24 degree stock motors for example...were they all the same, or were certain ones a little more "equal"? Was part of that marketing?...probably. The dollars and cents of it all mean that the manufacturing side will have to offer "equal plus one" if they want to sell product.

The racers have to agree and from the results and ideas from threads like this (you troller you), it's pretty clear that there are many different ideas and opinions out there.

Rabbit Hunting Season-OPEN!!!!
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