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Old 02-03-2010, 02:07 PM   #16
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Kill the rabbit!!!

Here's my take. Yes, some will be more "equal" than others. You can only get close to equal performance if you spec right down to the nut and bolt. This is no different than any other r/c war from the past. 24 degree stock motors for example...were they all the same, or were certain ones a little more "equal"? Was part of that marketing?...probably. The dollars and cents of it all mean that the manufacturing side will have to offer "equal plus one" if they want to sell product.

The racers have to agree and from the results and ideas from threads like this (you troller you), it's pretty clear that there are many different ideas and opinions out there.

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Troller! Moi? You're the one that wants to kill cute, innocent, litte wabbits Call it a rhetorical thread, one that may not ever be fully answered...
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:11 PM   #17
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For the USVTA 25.5 program, the differences among the controllers will probably not be the determination between winning and not winning.

No one has ever suggested that all non-timing escs are equivalent. The performance differences (among various controllers) are generally due to the number and rating of the MOSFETs used---more fets = higher price = better performance.

The Havoc Pros (+GTBs, SLYDRs) have lower on resistance than the Havocs (1S, 2S & 3S) and XBRs and therefore should offer better performance. But, using the slower, 25.5 wind motors will definitely narrow any difference.

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Thanks for that, Evo. Sent you a PM to discuss RCGT further. I do know where you're coming from but this thread isn't really about that. It's about whether the ESC's that are supposed to be equal really are.

NovakTwo, thanks for your input as well. Can you tell me though, that between the GTB, Havoc, Slyder and XBR speed controls (VTA legal per new rules) if their performance is the completely the same? Or are the differences really imperceptible? In other words, if I hook up the same motor to a GTB and Havoc, will I get the same results?

Maybe only time will tell...
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:25 PM   #18
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It would be impossible to police -- or at least very very difficult.

One way to ensure all "non-timing" ESCs to be equal is to get rid of sensors -- then the ESC manufacturers would be forced to approx. 20 degrees of maximum timing. The way a sensorless works, it is much much more difficult to screw with timing. This also prevents racers from "retiming" the sensors in the motor. Without sensors, the timing will be limited to a very small window (right around the maximum efficiency point, not the maximum power point) without any possibility of reclocking.

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I have said that exact same thing since this whole timing boost speedo war started. Hate to prove your point with another brand, But the most effective way to equalize a class is too spec a speedo. and I think the perfect candidate is the Hobbywing EZ-run sensorless systems. You can get the 35a speedo for around 30.00 and it doesnt care what motor you put behind it. For a motor spec the ez-run sensorless 13.5 or the 17.5 which is 40.00 so you have atotal of 70.00 give or take into a system that cant be tampered with as far as timing.The speedo has 9 pre-set timing settings to choose from, so the only advantage there would be setting it up for the right efficiency to power ratio to run as fast as the other guys.
And I know what some are going to say, but it will cog, nope.The 35a 17.5 combo feels very linear.The only cogging I have had in mine is if it rolls backwards, then it just takes a second to correct it'self.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:26 AM   #19
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You are correct to question fixed specs; one concern with spec products would be that they are all built to the same specifications. For instance timing can be added not only through PC adjustments, but also can be designed into the resident micro firmware.

A spec controller with a a small amount of built-in timing----say 5% or 10%---will have a significant advantage over speed controls designed with no timing and this may not be detectable.

As I have said before (many, many times....), the best solution for a spec controller would be manufacturers' offering stand alone, non-timing, non PC programmable escs. The manufacturers would be responsible (and accountable) for assuring customers and series directors that the controllers conforms to these rules.

This is definitely do-able. Other than USVTA, and maybe a few other series, "decision makers" are unwilling to decide. Lacking direction, the R/C industry is engineering its own demise. We, here at Novak, are definitely willing and capable of working toward this spec equipment goal.

Our dedication to this spec product segment should be obvious; we have been offering affordable, spec products/systems for well over a year. There is a simple solution--the spec products are available. But, there a lack of decisiveness.

All ROAR would have to do is set aside certain "spec/stock" events that require escs with the parameters outlined above, and mfgs could compete (within these guidelines) by offering the best products and after market parts and service for the price.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo
You are correct to question fixed specs; one concern with spec products would be that they are all built to the same specifications. For instance timing can be added not only through PC adjustments, but also can be designed into the resident micro firmware.

A spec controller with a a small amount of built-in timing----say 5% or 10%---will have a significant advantage over speed controls designed with no timing and this may not be detectable.

As I have said before (many, many times....), the best solution for a spec controller would be manufacturers' offering stand alone, non-timing, non PC programmable escs. The manufacturers would be responsible (and accountable) for assuring customers and series directors that the controllers conforms to these rules.

This is definitely do-able. Other than USVTA, and maybe a few other series, "decision makers" are unwilling to decide. Lacking direction, the R/C industry is engineering its own demise. We, here at Novak, are definitely willing and capable of working toward this spec equipment goal.

Our dedication to this spec product segment should be obvious; we have been offering affordable, spec products/systems for well over a year. There is a simple solution--the spec products are available. But, there a lack of decisiveness.

All ROAR would have to do is set aside certain "spec/stock" events that require escs with the parameters outlined above, and mfgs could compete (within these guidelines) by offering the best products and after market parts and service for the price.
AND impossible to police. This is why sensorless only operation is a good compromise - - it is impossible to time a sensorless motor beyond about 24 degrees of advance, due to back-EMF being unreadable with timing higher than about 24 degrees.

This makes the class self-policing. There won't be any "cheater" speed controls that a manufacturer would be able to put in place. Speed control manufacturers wouldn't be able to use tricks (like LRP, Tekin, and our Castle controllers all do) to increase the effective Kv of the motor.

The other issue is that any stock class that uses a sensored motor is begging for the racers themselves to modify their own motors. It's pretty easy to open a motor can, change the clocking of the sensors, and put the can back together. It's also nearly impossible to detect (unlike winding modifications which can be detected by a simple resistance test.) No amount of "self policing" on the part of the ESC manufacturers will prevent individual racers from reclocking the sensors.


The real issue is to limit the options of manufacturers and the racers to mess with the timing on the motor.

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Old 02-04-2010, 05:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pdelcast View Post
AND impossible to police. This is why sensorless only operation is a good compromise - - it is impossible to time a sensorless motor beyond about 24 degrees of advance, due to back-EMF being unreadable with timing higher than about 24 degrees.

This makes the class self-policing. There won't be any "cheater" speed controls that a manufacturer would be able to put in place. Speed control manufacturers wouldn't be able to use tricks (like LRP, Tekin, and our Castle controllers all do) to increase the effective Kv of the motor.

The other issue is that any stock class that uses a sensored motor is begging for the racers themselves to modify their own motors. It's pretty easy to open a motor can, change the clocking of the sensors, and put the can back together. It's also nearly impossible to detect (unlike winding modifications which can be detected by a simple resistance test.) No amount of "self policing" on the part of the ESC manufacturers will prevent individual racers from reclocking the sensors.


The real issue is to limit the options of manufacturers and the racers to mess with the timing on the motor.

Patrick del Castillo
Castle Creations
And of course, I should note that this is just my opinion -- If somebody else has a better idea, I'd love the hear it!
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:06 PM   #22
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sorry to open old post

real answer Not all speed is equal

brushless is young

not only the timing can change power to motor or final Rpm or KV


but good firmware =
fast interupt management
repeatability on timing
faster code = clock cpu or method to write code in C or assembler

good current or battery voltage management can also lower heat and increase performance

some esc heat up motor more than other and need to gear less


the only way very equal is to have an IC sensorless and all manufacture built is esc between it
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:59 PM   #23
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It would be very disappointing if any of the ESC manufacturers wilfully broke the zero timing rules in their software. I would hope the loss of credibility for anyone caught doing it would be enough of a disincentive.

Surely it is relatively easy to build a rig that piggybacks onto a motor in use and checks the timing of the signals through the sensor and power wires?

As far as the adjustability of non-restricted settings goes, that is something that was available in brushed ESCs, and it was never a problem. You could tune the feel of the car, but you wouldn't get any more speed out of it.

Next step is to fix the mechanical timing of the motors.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:36 PM   #24
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That's why you have the speedpassion Cirtix other have more aggressive profile and it does add at least 10 degree of timing. You can only call it spec if everyone runs the same ESC/Motor combo.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:06 PM   #25
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That's why you have the speedpassion Cirtix other have more aggressive profile and it does add at least 10 degree of timing. You can only call it spec if everyone runs the same ESC/Motor combo.
All Novak stand-alone controllers on ROAR's approved list for the Sportsman division have absolutely no built-in timing.

Our new controllers with advanced timing adjustments and/or PC programmability feature a non-timing profile, following ROAR's guidelines; this profile also has absolutely no built-in timing

We have designed and built a fixture to test any other esc to see if there is any residual timing or boost built into controllers advertised as "non-timing".
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
All Novak stand-alone controllers on ROAR's approved list for the Sportsman division have absolutely no built-in timing.

Our new controllers with advanced timing adjustments and/or PC programmability feature a non-timing profile, following ROAR's guidelines; this profile also has absolutely no built-in timing

We have designed and built a fixture to test any other esc to see if there is any residual timing or boost built into controllers advertised as "non-timing".
And have you had the opportunity to test any other speedo's?
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:37 PM   #27
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We ran a VTA class this summer using sportsman "zero timing" ESC rules on a track with (possibly) the longest straightaway VTA cars ever see. It took about 4.5 seconds to go down it. Novak, Tekin and LRP speedos were all in use, and no brand of ESC had a discernable speed advantage.

We also allowed any ROAR approved 21.5 motor (4.2 max. FDR), and there were noticable differences in them. Some of the non-Novak motors were quite a bit slower (and had much higher winding resistance readings), and one car with a Ballistic was faster. I suspect he had the motor's timing cranked very high since he needed a large heat sink and a fan to keep from thermalling. (We didn't have a rule on motor mechanical timing.) His best finish was 3rd.
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdelcast View Post
It would be impossible to police -- or at least very very difficult.

One way to ensure all "non-timing" ESCs to be equal is to get rid of sensors -- then the ESC manufacturers would be forced to approx. 20 degrees of maximum timing. The way a sensorless works, it is much much more difficult to screw with timing. This also prevents racers from "retiming" the sensors in the motor. Without sensors, the timing will be limited to a very small window (right around the maximum efficiency point, not the maximum power point) without any possibility of reclocking.

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Not being rude mate just wondering I thought a NON timing esc was just that???? you said (One way to ensure all "non-timing" ESCs to be equal is to get rid of sensors -- then the ESC manufacturers would be forced to approx. 20 degrees of maximum timing.)
does NOT make any sense to me.
Can u make me understand???
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:43 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Old Tech View Post
Kill the rabbit!!!

Here's my take. Yes, some will be more "equal" than others. You can only get close to equal performance if you spec right down to the nut and bolt. This is no different than any other r/c war from the past. 24 degree stock motors for example...were they all the same, or were certain ones a little more "equal"? Was part of that marketing?...probably. The dollars and cents of it all mean that the manufacturing side will have to offer "equal plus one" if they want to sell product.

The racers have to agree and from the results and ideas from threads like this (you troller you), it's pretty clear that there are many different ideas and opinions out there.

Rabbit Hunting Season-OPEN!!!!
yeah your right back in the day those 24 degree rebuildable brushed motors were no where near equal.....
you know what tho there is no way any company selling equipment is going to say (buy my esc cause its slower than the rest) not really a good selling point. But if the company says (buy my esc cause its the fastest legal one out there) ppl will buy it... Humans are relying on numbers for everything in there life. our life is controlled by time. the biggest most important numbers in the world besides the dollar. The company is in business to make make from us the hobbyist so they will not shoot them selves in the foot by saying the wrong thing and get no sales....

It will always be money driven...
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jochim_18 View Post
That's why you have the speedpassion Cirtix other have more aggressive profile and it does add at least 10 degree of timing. You can only call it spec if everyone runs the same ESC/Motor combo.
happy days the best comment yet.... the only way to get them equal is to run the three main things the same in a class... would be

MOTOR ESC AND BATTERY.... ppl are not looking at the big picture take it back ten years ago when the rules were you can only run a certain capacity battery and if you dont make run time you need to work out your gearing and your driving style...

Batteries make a big difference too. The gov bodies need to bring back limits for slower classes and say (you can only run a 25c 4000mah battery in this class) or choose a battery with the same discharge and capacity. Simple??

Just a idea to think about as ppl that were in the hobby back ten years ago will remember that it was a big topic MAKING run time lol.... (oh I dumped ha ha)
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