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Old 01-31-2010, 10:16 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
My problem is it's not fair. It's STOCK, should all be the same! Until recently with timing advance coming along, you could run a Lrp Sphear TC and Novak motor and you would be fast. These are ment to be the basic beginner classes. Was it Lrps fault with bringing out the SPX? I don't know if it was. It's way to exspensive, to much sandbagging, and no new people getting a fair chance. 17.5 is a class for my Dad that has to learn left hand transmitter. Not pro "racing". Grow some kuhunas and make a fast class. I'll run 17.5 when I have to. But I don't think it's where I should be at. If your track is to small for mod, your wrong. The owners manual of every radio in exsistence (even the DX3R, for people that can stand those radios ) will state something about the fact that the trigger does not have to be pulled back all the way, which OMG OMG OMG means that you can choose how fast you want your car to go! That's just a crazy enough idea to work! Now tell me what takes more skills.. Driving a fast car on a small tight track with 9 other fast cars, or driving a slow car with 9 others? Then it's not the motor ESC package. It's how much driver and traction there is.

I don't race my TV. My dish network coverage is not slowing me down tenths. Now my ugly sLOwSI 17.5 motor from my crawler, tenths. I will still come race, since racing is just plain fun. But my car will be covered with a towel from how that ugly losi motor does not go with my anodized MI4!
Hmmmm Can you please show me in the rule book where it says stock is a beginner class? Take a look at the Snowbirds results and see how much bigger 17.5 is compared to Mod. Look at all the big name drivers running stock. You think they are sand bagging?
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:40 AM   #107
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Hmmmm Can you please show me in the rule book where it says stock is a beginner class? Take a look at the Snowbirds results and see how much bigger 17.5 is compared to Mod. Look at all the big name drivers running stock. You think they are sand bagging?
Yes ! Stock is for the novice who gets the bump.....

No ! Their not just sand baggers , they are Turtles...
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:48 AM   #108
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There were still problems with "Stock" racing back in the olden days.

Matched sets of packs that you had to rematch often, either by alot of time with a $350 Competition Electronics charger 1 at a time, or an $850 what 8 at a time matcher. Then you had to rebuild your packs that only lasted at best half a season.

You had the Stock Motor wars in which every month someone would come up with the latest and greatest 27t motor which you needed 2 of. Not to mention the plethora of tuning springs and brushes, and brush cutter.

Don't even mention that fact that in order to be really competitive in this "Stock" racing back then, you needed a Fantom dyno and all that associated equipment (like a laptop).

Oh yes back in the day there were Speedo wars as well, but there were really only 2 players. Tekin and Novak, and instead of timing advances, we got drive frequency and regenerative braking and things of that sort.

Most people need to learn the difference between STOCK and SPEC. There is a world of difference.

Solution to the perceived problem is to stop calling it STOCK and start calling it by the turn of the motor. 17.5 13.5 10.5 Open Mod 21.5 25.5

RobK has a good SPEC type program that uses older speedo technology and 25.5 motors to slow things down. It works. Go look up the VTA ruleset.

Stop assuming "Sportsman" means beginner. To me "Sportsman" is for an up and comer that wants to progress to the "Expert" class he / she wants to go to, but in order to get to the "Sportsman" level, they came from "NOVICE."

Myron and crew in Nashville push the VTA type ruleset at their track. Drivers are encouraged to use the VTA bodies as well as the other things from it. It basically specs anything electronic. They do have a few changes from the current 25.5 ruleset, but as a whole it works for them. Novice - VTA Junior - VTA Sportsman - VTA Expert - VTA

Perception is everything.
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:53 AM   #109
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Hmmmm Can you please show me in the rule book where it says stock is a beginner class? Take a look at the Snowbirds results and see how much bigger 17.5 is compared to Mod. Look at all the big name drivers running stock. You think they are sand bagging?
Where else on earth do the beginners start? HONESTLY.. Then you get sponsored drivers in 17.5.. OHH PLEASE.. At least move to super stock (13.5) JEEZE. Mod is the sponsored class. If your sponsored and in 17.5 you should be shunned from the team. This is not targeted at anybody, but good lord. If your track runs a fast class, run the fast class. I hate Team Epic/ Trinity, but at least they realize if there sponsored drivers run in 17.5 it makes them look bad.

Groskamp, Lemieux, Cyrul, Tosolini, even Ryan Mayfeild (in what looks to be his first on road race ever) ran mod at Snowbirds. And ONLY mod. And there are NO driver's better than those guys. Baker and Hebert ran 13.5 at least.. Not 17.5.

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Old 01-31-2010, 10:59 AM   #110
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RobK has a good SPEC type program that uses older speedo technology and 25.5 motors to slow things down. It works. Go look up the VTA ruleset.

Stop assuming "Sportsman" means beginner. To me "Sportsman" is for an up and comer that wants to progress to the "Expert" class he / she wants to go to, but in order to get to the "Sportsman" level, they came from "NOVICE."

Myron and crew in Nashville push the VTA type ruleset at their track. Drivers are encouraged to use the VTA bodies as well as the other things from it. It basically specs anything electronic. They do have a few changes from the current 25.5 ruleset, but as a whole it works for them. Novice - VTA Junior - VTA Sportsman - VTA Expert - VTA

Perception is everything.
I like the idea of this VTA system. At least the fast guys have there own class if they wanna go slow. And, equipment it totally spec'd. Not just the type of motor you can run.

Most track's don't have a Novice class. One track that does(RCPlus, Salem Or) and it keep's the fast guys out of that class. They use 17.5 or Brushed 27 turns. It keep's the newbs in one corner and fast guys in another. I wish I could make it up to that track more often, and bring my dad along as there novice class is a perfect place for him to race. (or hit the boards.. )
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:15 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
Yup.. It's very true.

NOW, if you could run mod, it would not matter as much. Strap in a 5.5-6.5-7.5 with correct gearing and your limited by traction levels to how much power can be put down.

For the stock classes, you would need a Tekin RS Pro with V203 "Vegas 2.0" software, Speed Passion GT 2.1 Pro Stock, or LRP SXX Stock Spec. Those are the quickest stock class ESC's out. See why stock class is a pain in the butt??
except for the fact that friday night I ran a LRP SXX TC spec "MOD" esc with a 17.5 and had 2nd up until a last lap back marker I would agree. Tekin and 203 had more 'RIP' but I drove a better race.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:22 AM   #112
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Solution to the perceived problem is to stop calling it STOCK and start calling it by the turn of the motor. 17.5 13.5 10.5 Open Mod 21.5 25.5
I agree with this comment.

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Old 01-31-2010, 11:30 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
My problem is it's not fair. It's STOCK, should all be the same! Until recently with timing advance coming along, you could run a Lrp Sphear TC and Novak motor and you would be fast. These are ment to be the basic beginner classes. Was it Lrps fault with bringing out the SPX? I don't know if it was. It's way to exspensive, to much sandbagging, and no new people getting a fair chance. 17.5 is a class for my Dad that has to learn left hand transmitter. Not pro "racing". Grow some kuhunas and make a fast class. I'll run 17.5 when I have to. But I don't think it's where I should be at. If your track is to small for mod, your wrong. The owners manual of every radio in exsistence (even the DX3R, for people that can stand those radios ) will state something about the fact that the trigger does not have to be pulled back all the way, which OMG OMG OMG means that you can choose how fast you want your car to go! That's just a crazy enough idea to work! Now tell me what takes more skills.. Driving a fast car on a small tight track with 9 other fast cars, or driving a slow car with 9 others? Then it's not the motor ESC package. It's how much driver and traction there is.

I don't race my TV. My dish network coverage is not slowing me down tenths. Now my ugly sLOwSI 17.5 motor from my crawler, tenths. I will still come race, since racing is just plain fun. But my car will be covered with a towel from how that ugly losi motor does not go with my anodized MI4!
lets review, "stock" midnight, midnight2, paradox, p2k p2k2, epic stock, etc, etc, thats from trintiy, from reedy,......... from yokomo...... not to mention the brushes, springs, novak cyclone, tekin G9, KO, LRP, question is when exactly was "stock" "the same". if new people want to "have a chance" then spend more time practicing, learning setup, learning lines, etc etc, this is RACING, just cause someone isn't that good at it doesn't mean everyone else needs to run a different class. This Ain't T-BALL and we do keep score. if don't have the time or money to improve or just plain have limited skills, then consider yourself a hobbist and just enjoy what doing playing with your toy car, oh thats right if you can't win then its no fun and your gonna quick "racing'.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:37 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
Where else on earth do the beginners start? HONESTLY.. Then you get sponsored drivers in 17.5.. OHH PLEASE.. At least move to super stock (13.5) JEEZE. Mod is the sponsored class. If your sponsored and in 17.5 you should be shunned from the team. This is not targeted at anybody, but good lord. If your track runs a fast class, run the fast class. I hate Team Epic/ Trinity, but at least they realize if there sponsored drivers run in 17.5 it makes them look bad.

Groskamp, Lemieux, Cyrul, Tosolini, even Ryan Mayfeild (in what looks to be his first on road race ever) ran mod at Snowbirds. And ONLY mod. And there are NO driver's better than those guys. Baker and Hebert ran 13.5 at least.. Not 17.5.

-Mike
I'm sponsored and HONESTLY, Groskamp, Lemieux, Cyrul, Tosolini, and even Ryan Mayfeild (in what is NOT is first road race ever) can put 3-4 laps on me, do not confuse sponsored driver with FACTORY DRIVER. if you work in a hobby shop and get a employee discount your are a sponsored driver no matter your skill level.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:53 AM   #115
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Just run 2 classes 17.5 open and 17.5 spec. Everyone that wants to run 17.5 Spec runs a spec ESC(RS v198) or whatever the organizers want for an Esc. Open 17.5 is just that Open!!!!!

1/12th 17.5 spec
1/12th 17.5 open
1/10th WGT 17.5 spec
1/10th WGT 17.5 open
1/10th TC 17.5 spec
1/10th TC 17.5 open

Make it simple and people will show up. For myself I love the challenge of tweaking the esc and motors to death to get all I can out of a small box. I also love Tc mod but theirs doesn't ever seem to be enough for us to race mod at my local track.

This is just what I would do if I was faced with this situation. The cool thing is that this is such a great hobby that were willing to do whatever it takes to try and make it work best for each competitor and hobbiest.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:17 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
except for the fact that friday night I ran a LRP SXX TC spec "MOD" esc with a 17.5 and had 2nd up until a last lap back marker I would agree. Tekin and 203 had more 'RIP' but I drove a better race.
I think the speedo will only do so much, if your cant run a clean line the whole 6 min then thats the driver not the speedo
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:23 PM   #117
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I'm sponsored and HONESTLY, Groskamp, Lemieux, Cyrul, Tosolini, and even Ryan Mayfeild (in what is NOT is first road race ever) can put 3-4 laps on me, do not confuse sponsored driver with FACTORY DRIVER. if you work in a hobby shop and get a employee discount your are a sponsored driver no matter your skill level.
A sponsored driver is a factory driver. They are representatives for a company. On Snowbirds site it says this Ryan's first carpet race. I took that the wrong way. And I work at a hobby shop. So hell, I guess ive been sponsored for years.

And There are plenty of, what you call "Factory Drivers" in 13.5. If you represent a company, no matter your percent, you should not be in stock/ super stock. That's a class for the fast privateers. Heck, maybe this means that there are to many sponsored drivers that have no reason to be on the team. (This is NOT directed at you. Broad statement.)
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:38 PM   #118
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except for the fact that friday night I ran a LRP SXX TC spec "MOD" esc with a 17.5 and had 2nd up until a last lap back marker I would agree. Tekin and 203 had more 'RIP' but I drove a better race.
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I think the speedo will only do so much, if your cant run a clean line the whole 6 min then thats the driver not the speedo
This is true some times on small carpet tracks of the NW. Go outdoors (Speedworld raceway, Roseville CA) and you can't hold your own. Scotty Barnes smoked me on this principal of basic esc no timing advance, but this was before timing advance was figured out (gearing and profiles) and Tekins were still 199 I believe (No warm ups, 4 minute timing advance and cutting threw the pits )

After that, it was V200 Tekin or SPX. They were very close. Spx and the Duo were pretty king of the hill.

TODAY, Speed World has a stock and mod class. The Men (and a under aged one known as the "BOS") have separated from the sportsman. Gas guys have gone to electric because they wanna stay going "fast". And SPX profile 8, V203, and prototype software is getting traded for SXX's, profile one, and good old trusty mod software.

See my argument? Why have all this trouble, to go slow? When the soup boils down, its still our hobby, no matter weather we do it once a month or we are gracing the covers of magazines. We are all in it for the fun. This a argument that may never end in the pits. But I know where my people and I stand.

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Old 01-31-2010, 07:37 PM   #119
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A little video of our 10.5 foam class.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdaKKPFT8Eg
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:55 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
Where else on earth do the beginners start? HONESTLY.. Then you get sponsored drivers in 17.5.. OHH PLEASE.. At least move to super stock (13.5) JEEZE. Mod is the sponsored class. If your sponsored and in 17.5 you should be shunned from the team. This is not targeted at anybody, but good lord. If your track runs a fast class, run the fast class. I hate Team Epic/ Trinity, but at least they realize if there sponsored drivers run in 17.5 it makes them look bad.

Groskamp, Lemieux, Cyrul, Tosolini, even Ryan Mayfeild (in what looks to be his first on road race ever) ran mod at Snowbirds. And ONLY mod. And there are NO driver's better than those guys. Baker and Hebert ran 13.5 at least.. Not 17.5.

-Mike
Don't you think the manufactures want to represent their chassis in all classes with their drivers and not just mod. Oh beginners start in Novice. The novice class really needs to come back and not let the newbies get thrown to the wolves. I could throw a mod motor in my car anytime I want to. But wait there isn't a mod class where I race. We run 17.5. We have 2 full heats every week its fun and some of the best racing I have seen. Way more exciting to watch then a mod race and watching racers drop out like flies with broken cars,blown,motors and so on. So I will be in Salem Tuesday you put your mod motor in and I will leave my 17.5 in. You can race with us and see who wins. Really how many beginners are you going to see at Snowbirds,IIC or nationals?
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Last edited by DaredevilD; 01-31-2010 at 08:59 PM. Reason: add on
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