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Old 01-30-2010, 10:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Andy63 View Post
Stock or super stock is not under controll. this class is spinning way ahead and they are going as fast as the modified cars!

Look at todays ETS Series qualifying. the one that took pole in super stock(13.5) did a best laptime of 18.9xx in 3rd round and the world champion in modified did a high 18.4 on the last qualify.

Thats barely a half a second down. and he could have qualifyed top 15 in modified with his current qualify time. i mean what the hell. whats the point?

all the other pros like Viktor Wilck, juho levanen, andy moore etc etc was just 3 tenth´s faster then the guy in super stock. and thats just WOW.

i would say, nothing lower then 17,5 should even exist as a class in touring except modified. i think we should have only two classes in touring ans thats stock and modified. and stock shouldnt have lower then 17,5 engines. but that barely helps at all. they goes almost as fast as 13.5. but they wont be that fast on any track.


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I'm pretty sure your saying something like the idea I already threw out, as in 17.5 and mod only. Cool
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:28 PM   #92
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[QUOTE=Andy63;6931714]Stock or super stock is not under controll. this class is spinning way ahead and they are going as fast as the modified cars!

Look at todays ETS Series qualifying. the one that took pole in super stock(13.5) did a best laptime of 18.9xx in 3rd round and the world champion in modified did a high 18.4 on the last qualify.

Thats barely a half a second down. and he could have qualifyed top 15 in modified with his current qualify time. i mean what the hell. whats the point?

all the other pros like Viktor Wilck, juho levanen, andy moore etc etc was just 3 tenth´s faster then the guy in super stock. and thats just WOW.

i would say, nothing lower then 17,5 should even exist as a class in touring except modified. i think we should have only two classes in touring ans thats stock and modified. and stock shouldnt have lower then 17,5 engines. but that barely helps at all. they goes almost as fast as 13.5. but they wont be that fast on any track.




Sorry, I disagree with you. Just by comparing the lap time between mod and 13.5 class which doesn't mean anything.
A driver expert in 13.5 class, and can do a 18s b/lap, which doesn't mean he can do mod class in 17s b/lap on a same track.
Try it for yourself, if you not believe me.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:31 PM   #93
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Very True! Mod is way harder to drive fast than a 13.5.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:38 PM   #94
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I am getting ready to get into onroad but I have a little bit of a dilema. Currently I only have a GTB but from what I am hearing my GTB will not be able to keep up with a RS pro with the same motor connected. Is this really true?
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:48 PM   #95
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I am getting ready to get into onroad but I have a little bit of a dilema. Currently I only have a GTB but from what I am hearing my GTB will not be able to keep up with a RS pro with the same motor connected. Is this really true?
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:52 PM   #96
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I am getting ready to get into onroad but I have a little bit of a dilema. Currently I only have a GTB but from what I am hearing my GTB will not be able to keep up with a RS pro with the same motor connected. Is this really true?
Yup.. It's very true.

NOW, if you could run mod, it would not matter as much. Strap in a 5.5-6.5-7.5 with correct gearing and your limited by traction levels to how much power can be put down.

For the stock classes, you would need a Tekin RS Pro with V203 "Vegas 2.0" software, Speed Passion GT 2.1 Pro Stock, or LRP SXX Stock Spec. Those are the quickest stock class ESC's out. See why stock class is a pain in the butt??
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:56 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Owen RaCing View Post
Yup.. It's very true.

NOW, if you could run mod, it would not matter as much. Strap in a 5.5-6.5-7.5 with correct gearing and your limited by traction levels to how much power can be put down.

For the stock classes, you would need a Tekin RS Pro with V203 "Vegas 2.0" software, Speed Passion GT 2.1 Pro Stock, or LRP SXX Stock Spec. Those are the quickest stock class ESC's out. See why stock class is a pain in the butt??

I figured that I would ask a question and make a point. Thanks for the offer to drive your car Mikey!
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:00 PM   #98
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Sam E. That is precisly my point when I said, "definition" of a class. Are you saying stock should be like spec or visa-versa? Where I race "stock" and 17.5 are synonymous. Refers to motor, that's it. We also have a stock novice class. Same equipment, less skill. ?

I'm curious. Why do you feel stock racing should'nt be about technology? Does'nt the best driver still win. All the timing advance in the world is'nt going to get an unskilled driver aroung the track any faster.

Belive me, I agree with you on the buying another speedo every 6mos issue. I can't, so I don't. I have to be wise with my purchases. Notice the speedos in my signature, upgradable. Four weeks ago another brand was the "one" to have. But I CHOSE not to ditch what I had to get that other color speedo before the recent software came out. Yes, I've had the Tekin for months and now I benefit from the upgrade. I also fully expect it won't be long before the other brands come out with something to knock off the "mighty Teken" as you put it.

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Old 01-30-2010, 11:09 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by dr_speed View Post
I agree with the OP.

The last six or seven years I've been racing nitro, practically every class out there on and off-road. Recently a carpet track opened up nearby, and I purchased a 1/12, a class I've been dying to try but had no facilities nearby to run on. We run open mod. I love the class, my favorite by far. It gives me the same feeling as 1/8 on-road which was my favorite class previously.

Being hooked on the 1/12, I started researching for big races to go to. Lucky me the snowbirds is going on right now, so I've been watching online as it unfolds. I am not new to racing or even big races, but all in nitro. It's been an interesting experience watching it all. And I am sad to say I don't feel like I missed out on much. It's just not the same atmosphere as nitro, where if you're fast, you're fast. Everybody else work on getting better. Where if you have a race with 300 entries, and two classes you know you are going up against at least 100 other quality drivers.

Man, what a bunch of whiners are electric racers!!! this esc this, this esc that, battery here, battery there, close racing, cars are too fast, car breaking track, God forbid I have to actually learn something new....etc. Man up!!! Drive within your limits!

From what I have researched I see that most of these esc and similar issues are null in mod.

The open playing field gives different ways of reaching the same solution.

In nitro, you pick your class, you go run the best you can with what you have, if your not fast enough you end up in a low main. Simple as that. There are stock motors, mod motors, different nitro percentages, pipes to change your powerband, and different clutch settings. Guess what they all run together, because they are all just tuning options, and in the end if you can't handle a fast race car AND run clean lines you are not going to end up in the A-main.

Want close racing? Ever since I started racing, I was told that's what the mains system is for. People around the same speed race together, doesn't matter if its A or Z main, Pro or newbie. Maybe electric racers can't bear the thought of running in the g-main?

Watching the race as a newb to electric races, I was shocked by many things. I've heard of the snowbirds forever, heard how big their racer turnout was, 500 to 600 entries. Shocked to see only 15 racers in 1/12 mod, during practice. I have seen the same names in the slower classes as in the faster classes. So I thought, hmmm, maybe it's just a way to get more track time at the event. Could be, or is it the big fish small pond thing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying nitro is better. But I do like their race system better. I do like the speed and agility of mod electrics.

True spec racing is a very difficult thing to implement. Spec racing in my view, is same chassis, same tires, same body, same motor, esc, batteries.... etc. Same everything, that is spec. The closest thing I've seen to that type of spec racing is VRC. So there you have it. You want cheap spec racing go race VRC! everybody else man up and drive!!!
I think your comments will go over most racers heads because for most electric racers the thought of being in the B-Main is scary. The solution is simple, as you stated, but it doesn't please the masses so it will be ignored.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:40 AM   #100
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ahh, never mind
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:54 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Robio View Post
Sam E. That is precisly my point when I said, "definition" of a class. Are you saying stock should be like spec or visa-versa? Where I race "stock" and 17.5 are synonymous. Refers to motor, that's it. We also have a stock novice class. Same equipment, less skill. ?

I'm curious. Why do you feel stock racing should'nt be about technology? Does'nt the best driver still win. All the timing advance in the world is'nt going to get an unskilled driver aroung the track any faster.

Belive me, I agree with you on the buying another speedo every 6mos issue. I can't, so I don't. I have to be wise with my purchases. Notice the speedos in my signature, upgradable. Four weeks ago another brand was the "one" to have. But I CHOSE not to ditch what I had to get that other color speedo before the recent software came out. Yes, I've had the Tekin for months and now I benefit from the upgrade. I also fully expect it won't be long before the other brands come out with something to knock off the "mighty Teken" as you put it.

Rob.........
Rob in my opinion stock is for the juniors and the technology is spiraling out of control, I agree with you that the best driver should win but what of two equal drivers, one 15yr old with a shoe string budget and one adult with deep pockets. I have seen it before it is hard for the school kid to compete with some budgets.

My other problem is software, it is easy to cook a motor or speedy if over geared and timed, the software endhancemanet only compounds this problem for the newbs and young people. Back in the days of brushed stock, the brushed motors had fixed timing. I think the governing body should have intoduced similar technology with fixed timing as well.

my 2c.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by dr_speed View Post
I agree with the OP.

The last six or seven years I've been racing nitro, practically every class out there on and off-road. Recently a carpet track opened up nearby, and I purchased a 1/12, a class I've been dying to try but had no facilities nearby to run on. We run open mod. I love the class, my favorite by far. It gives me the same feeling as 1/8 on-road which was my favorite class previously.

Being hooked on the 1/12, I started researching for big races to go to. Lucky me the snowbirds is going on right now, so I've been watching online as it unfolds. I am not new to racing or even big races, but all in nitro. It's been an interesting experience watching it all. And I am sad to say I don't feel like I missed out on much. It's just not the same atmosphere as nitro, where if you're fast, you're fast. Everybody else work on getting better. Where if you have a race with 300 entries, and two classes you know you are going up against at least 100 other quality drivers.

Man, what a bunch of whiners are electric racers!!! this esc this, this esc that, battery here, battery there, close racing, cars are too fast, car breaking track, God forbid I have to actually learn something new....etc. Man up!!! Drive within your limits!

From what I have researched I see that most of these esc and similar issues are null in mod.

The open playing field gives different ways of reaching the same solution.

In nitro, you pick your class, you go run the best you can with what you have, if your not fast enough you end up in a low main. Simple as that. There are stock motors, mod motors, different nitro percentages, pipes to change your powerband, and different clutch settings. Guess what they all run together, because they are all just tuning options, and in the end if you can't handle a fast race car AND run clean lines you are not going to end up in the A-main.

Want close racing? Ever since I started racing, I was told that's what the mains system is for. People around the same speed race together, doesn't matter if its A or Z main, Pro or newbie. Maybe electric racers can't bear the thought of running in the g-main?

Watching the race as a newb to electric races, I was shocked by many things. I've heard of the snowbirds forever, heard how big their racer turnout was, 500 to 600 entries. Shocked to see only 15 racers in 1/12 mod, during practice. I have seen the same names in the slower classes as in the faster classes. So I thought, hmmm, maybe it's just a way to get more track time at the event. Could be, or is it the big fish small pond thing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying nitro is better. But I do like their race system better. I do like the speed and agility of mod electrics.

True spec racing is a very difficult thing to implement. Spec racing in my view, is same chassis, same tires, same body, same motor, esc, batteries.... etc. Same everything, that is spec. The closest thing I've seen to that type of spec racing is VRC. So there you have it. You want cheap spec racing go race VRC! everybody else man up and drive!!!

Yeah right and nitro racers do not wihne, nitro racers are just as big winhers, if not bigger!! Just look at the my motor is faster than yours thread's or the my car is better than your threads.
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:50 AM   #103
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The way I see it is this,

Brushless technology is still new, at least for cars. Being able to adjust motor timing as a function of RPM is a sensible and attainable software parameter. There isn't a lot else that you can do to squeeze more out of a speedo. I'm in the UK and we have the same problem with adjustable timing speed controls just having more speed than my GTB. That speed control is going into my buggy and my speed passion LFP2.0 will be going into my TC. (BTW the top speed control in the UK is the GM Genius 120. All the top guys are using them and they are just plain better than the Tekin)

Motors:
I was racing in the glory days of stock. Those easy days where I had to keep a supply of different motors in my pit box, ones that were RPM based or torque based depending on the size of track. Having to change the brushes every meet, and (before rebuildable stock) having to buy a new motor every month. Now I have a £50 13.5t Losi motor which cost as much as two stock motors and they have lasted for ages.
CHEAPER THAN EVER BEFORE

Speed Control:
I blew up a few LRP Quantum speed controls running brushed stock too, and they weren't exactly cheap at £100 a go. If you go for Speed Passion then the prices are about the same as they were before. If you want a cheap brushless speedo get a £35 hobbywing from china, they seem to be ok and are essentially the same technology as SP.
NO CHANGE IN COST

Cells
In the olden days it was even harder to be competitive as sponsored drivers actually got significantly better equipment than the average racer, the best NiMH cells were cherry picked at the factory and never sold to the public. Back then money literally couldn't buy the highest speeds in stock. There was a huge battery war as every bit of voltage counted, runtime was a real issue and battery degradation was a real problem. I think the situation is much better now as sponsored drivers are all essentially driving off the self products. So long as you have sensible equipment its only your thumbs and ability to set up a car that makes you slower than them. Lipo technology means you don't need to discharge and balance cells between charging, its much harder to short them out, runtime is no issue and battery voltage is more consistent across packs. I still run my old cells, fives sets which cost £60 a go. When I do upgrade I'll be getting two sets at £70 a go.
CHEAPER THAN EVER BEFORE

Chassis
In stock weight and drivetrain drag have always been the limits on speed. A decent chassis has always been essential in stock. TC racing is pretty new itself. I came from a buggy background where breaking the car was the rule not the exception. Breaking a wishbone, shock tower, hub, etc was all part of a weeks racing. That cost is much lower in TC. Also as most people run rubber tires on carpet in the UK there are less setup changes needed. For offroad buggy I needed 5 sets of front and 5 sets of rear springs. Now I only need 2 front and 2 rear for everywhere.
NO CHANGE IN COST

Tx/Rx
2.4 GHz, enough said!


I think we have come to a plateau in stock. You are never going to need a battery with more than 40C. Now we have variable timing advance its going to stick around for good. The technology now is much more reliable than ever before, lower maintenance and less hassle. Speed controls are versatile and upgradable. If I was to start racing stock today I think I could buy decent kit at a decent price and be competitive for 2 seasons with minimal extra outlay and not that much hassle.

I think stock has undergone a transition but I think it is good for racing in general.
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:47 AM   #104
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I think people would complain if black and white tv was the newest biggest thing. This is racing fokes. There is always someone that comes along and with something new and it costs more then what you are use to paying. Then another company comes along and provides the same thing as the first but not as much money. So that forces people to buy something new cause their eqipment is now obsolete. Well you can run what you already have and be happy with running in the middle of the pack or you competitive side comes out and you buy the newest thing cause you want to win. Really nobody is twisting anybodies arm to buy a new ESC. This is how racing works. So today I am going to buy a black and white tv and be happy about it. Maybe I will splurge and get some new rabbit ears too.
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Old 01-31-2010, 07:03 AM   #105
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I think people would complain if black and white tv was the newest biggest thing. This is racing fokes. There is always someone that comes along and with something new and it costs more then what you are use to paying. Then another company comes along and provides the same thing as the first but not as much money. So that forces people to buy something new cause their eqipment is now obsolete. Well you can run what you already have and be happy with running in the middle of the pack or you competitive side comes out and you buy the newest thing cause you want to win. Really nobody is twisting anybodies arm to buy a new ESC. This is how racing works. So today I am going to buy a black and white tv and be happy about it. Maybe I will splurge and get some new rabbit ears too.
My problem is it's not fair. It's STOCK, should all be the same! Until recently with timing advance coming along, you could run a Lrp Sphear TC and Novak motor and you would be fast. These are ment to be the basic beginner classes. Was it Lrps fault with bringing out the SPX? I don't know if it was. It's way to exspensive, to much sandbagging, and no new people getting a fair chance. 17.5 is a class for my Dad that has to learn left hand transmitter. Not pro "racing". Grow some kuhunas and make a fast class. I'll run 17.5 when I have to. But I don't think it's where I should be at. If your track is to small for mod, your wrong. The owners manual of every radio in exsistence (even the DX3R, for people that can stand those radios ) will state something about the fact that the trigger does not have to be pulled back all the way, which OMG OMG OMG means that you can choose how fast you want your car to go! That's just a crazy enough idea to work! Now tell me what takes more skills.. Driving a fast car on a small tight track with 9 other fast cars, or driving a slow car with 9 others? Then it's not the motor ESC package. It's how much driver and traction there is.

I don't race my TV. My dish network coverage is not slowing me down tenths. Now my ugly sLOwSI 17.5 motor from my crawler, tenths. I will still come race, since racing is just plain fun. But my car will be covered with a towel from how that ugly losi motor does not go with my anodized MI4!
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