Solution for the stock class problems
01-29-2010, 11:12 AM
#31
I believe mod is the way to go if you want everyone on a more equal playing field. Every real race car I know of has way to much hp and can break traction at almost any time. Thats what makes racing fun to watch. Mod puts the control and skill of handling the car back in the drivers hands. You also don't have to worry about buying the flavor of the month motor everyone it wanting to run.
01-29-2010, 11:37 AM
#32
I dunno, there was a thread awhile back stating the same things, "good drivers go to mod, too chicken to go to mod?, sponsored drivers don't do mod to get easy wins in stock, why can't you go to mod so we can be happy," etc, etc ad nauseum... The response was kinda like, "we like it in stock, it's closer racing, mod breaks our cars, we don't like racing alone, we can't afford it, we just don't wanna..."
In mod yes, you choose the motor that suits you. But some don't want that choice. For them, it's nice knowing everyone is running the same thing, whether it be 13.5, 17.5, silver can or hamster on a wheel. It just that lately, the other "same thing" (the ESC) has turned things totally upside down...and now...the sky is falling.
In mod yes, you choose the motor that suits you. But some don't want that choice. For them, it's nice knowing everyone is running the same thing, whether it be 13.5, 17.5, silver can or hamster on a wheel. It just that lately, the other "same thing" (the ESC) has turned things totally upside down...and now...the sky is falling.
01-29-2010, 11:47 AM
#33
'Scuse me, but what exactly is "fair" competition???
I lost because the other guy has better equipment...that's not fair!
I lost because the other guy is a local and knows the set-up better...that's not fair!
I lost because the other guy is a better driver and can drive circles around me blind-folded and fall down drunk...that's not fair!
Racing is competiton...and competition is not fair.
Racing does not need to be divided by motor, or esc, or ability, or moon phase...it needs to be divided by driver "type". My local track is developing a class of Tamiya M-chassis racing...the only group of drivers who are laughing and appear to be having fun both on and off the driver's stand on a given night. I don't think one of them cares either way...win lose or draw. We also have a solid class of 13.5 sedan going...both Sportsman and Pro/Expert. Obviously, those guys are more serious. In both cases, it's racing and each group is enjoying the experience in thier own way...and that's OK.
This issue needs to be solved at the local level. Most tracks will allow a group to run their own heat provided you have a minimum number of sign-ups. Get to know your fellow racers, and work with your local track owner. If your thing is a Pink Tamiya Mini Cooper with a 4S lipo and a 4.5 on foams, I say find other like you and have at it!
I lost because the other guy has better equipment...that's not fair!
I lost because the other guy is a local and knows the set-up better...that's not fair!
I lost because the other guy is a better driver and can drive circles around me blind-folded and fall down drunk...that's not fair!
Racing is competiton...and competition is not fair.
Racing does not need to be divided by motor, or esc, or ability, or moon phase...it needs to be divided by driver "type". My local track is developing a class of Tamiya M-chassis racing...the only group of drivers who are laughing and appear to be having fun both on and off the driver's stand on a given night. I don't think one of them cares either way...win lose or draw. We also have a solid class of 13.5 sedan going...both Sportsman and Pro/Expert. Obviously, those guys are more serious. In both cases, it's racing and each group is enjoying the experience in thier own way...and that's OK.
This issue needs to be solved at the local level. Most tracks will allow a group to run their own heat provided you have a minimum number of sign-ups. Get to know your fellow racers, and work with your local track owner. If your thing is a Pink Tamiya Mini Cooper with a 4S lipo and a 4.5 on foams, I say find other like you and have at it!
01-29-2010, 12:36 PM
#34
Jaime, good observation but you're comparing apples and oranges.
In nitro even the cheapest engine has way more power than the track can handle. What's the biggest complaint you hear? "There's not enough traction." In nitro on road you have to worry about how much throttle you apply at any given time. Some of the better drivers even play around with throttle steering.
Electric on road, especially on carpet, has far too much traction. When was the last time you spun the tires on your 1/12 car? Add to that everyone runs deliberately slower motors to where you never lose grip. And because of that, any tiny advantage in power becomes amplified.
Notice that this problem only exists in electric on road.
In nitro even the cheapest engine has way more power than the track can handle. What's the biggest complaint you hear? "There's not enough traction." In nitro on road you have to worry about how much throttle you apply at any given time. Some of the better drivers even play around with throttle steering.
Electric on road, especially on carpet, has far too much traction. When was the last time you spun the tires on your 1/12 car? Add to that everyone runs deliberately slower motors to where you never lose grip. And because of that, any tiny advantage in power becomes amplified.
Notice that this problem only exists in electric on road.
01-29-2010, 12:39 PM
#35
Pretty sad for electric racing when it takes a nitro driver to point out the obvious. People are whining because they want to run their chosen car with their chosen equipment and their acheived skill level...... and always win.
Tired of hearing "I wish my kids could afford to race" or " I can't afford....". Yes you and the kids can race. Sorry if your idea of "racing" also means you have to win. Sadly, that is where society has gone. Winning and losing are both life lessons.
Have I missed something in life or isn't the idea of racing to be the "fastest" ? I am tired of hearing people complain the cars are getting too fast. Stop hiding behind mommy's skirt and tell the truth. The cars are getting too fast for you. Time to man down and race a slower class that you can handle.
Now for the "spec addicts" that love to talk about how much more competitive is to spec a cheap motor or cheap esc. Okay, what about your $ 200.00 plus radios and why did you just buy that 5000mah lipo and why waste more money on buying new tires to race ?
Time to go refill my box of popcorn.
Tired of hearing "I wish my kids could afford to race" or " I can't afford....". Yes you and the kids can race. Sorry if your idea of "racing" also means you have to win. Sadly, that is where society has gone. Winning and losing are both life lessons.
Have I missed something in life or isn't the idea of racing to be the "fastest" ? I am tired of hearing people complain the cars are getting too fast. Stop hiding behind mommy's skirt and tell the truth. The cars are getting too fast for you. Time to man down and race a slower class that you can handle.
Now for the "spec addicts" that love to talk about how much more competitive is to spec a cheap motor or cheap esc. Okay, what about your $ 200.00 plus radios and why did you just buy that 5000mah lipo and why waste more money on buying new tires to race ?
Time to go refill my box of popcorn.
01-29-2010, 12:43 PM
#36
I think the biggest issue is the cost to be able to be competitive.
We all know that bringing new people in is the best way to keep our tracks and shops open. And that is why SC did so well for the past few years, buy a rig for 200 and put it out there with other 200 dollar rigs.
When a new person comes in you say oh you should start out in stock its slower and you can learn to drive... But now with technology gaming the system 17.5 are 13.5 speeds and 13.5 are 10.5/9.5 speeds.
Same thing happened when BL came out it was thought that 13.5 would be stock motors, then people realized the power bands different and when geared right a 13.5 was more of a 19T.
I think the thing is that there is too much adjustment in a Stock Class. Now we are on computers changing profiles of the ESC, using advanced and retarded timing on motors and more.
So you tell the new guy/gal to join mod so they can learn the car. So they go out and find the cheapest setup they can for a 17.5, the old havoc/17.5 setup, with a 15C lipo they are excited. Well they put it on the track and they are getting run over on the straight away by cars that have Modified Top end speeds but are running 17.5 setups!
So the newbie runs the same equipment just swaps in a 9.5 motor throws it down in the mod class and he/she is just as fast as the other cars now... they are bouncing all over the place because they are overpowered but thats driving they feel they will get better but now the field is level.
I run mod offroad as my main choice, And my B44 or T4 have lrp sphere speed controls running 6.5 and 7.5 motors running a 28C battery, If I am not near the front it was because i screwed up not because i was out powered...
Now I recently ran touring cars and decided I would start with stock... so I pulled a sphere out of my offroad rig and threw it in with a 17.5, geared it to where it was supposed to be and up the punch profiles on the ESC to the highest.
Now the car was fine, felt like when i ran brushed 27T in TC's 2 years back. The first heat came around and if I didnt get just swallowed alive on just about every portion of the track, cars were driving through me on the straightway or having to brake check because they were on me like I was running a 4 cell battery pack... So since this was a larger regional race I had to upgrade to compete... So 50C battery in, new X12 motor in, pulled the Sphere and Borrowed a SPX ESC for the weekend. Now I was still being pulled on the straightaway just a touch by the Tekin Turbo but the car was competitive. I went from being a road block to being on TQ pace a few heats, now I fell off that pace because of lack of talent
but speed wise I was there
All it took was a $125 battery, $90 dollar motor, and a seperate $200 speed control designed for stock specific racing. When I could have ran a 7.5 with the what is now a dinosaur sphere esc and the old 28C battery and just turned down the EPA if it was a touch too fast in the mod class and had plenty of motor to be competitive equipment wise.
Long story Short.... The speeds and Cost to get into stock racing are making it tough for newcomers to get into the sport. And it is not always about winning but you want to be able to compete right, and if you do not have SXX stock spec or Tekin RS speed controls and a 35C or higher battery you can not compete in stock classes today, and then the ya its racing so it is expensive... yes but it is now cheaper to run Mod you dont have to worry about the Flavor of the month ESC
We all know that bringing new people in is the best way to keep our tracks and shops open. And that is why SC did so well for the past few years, buy a rig for 200 and put it out there with other 200 dollar rigs.
When a new person comes in you say oh you should start out in stock its slower and you can learn to drive... But now with technology gaming the system 17.5 are 13.5 speeds and 13.5 are 10.5/9.5 speeds.
Same thing happened when BL came out it was thought that 13.5 would be stock motors, then people realized the power bands different and when geared right a 13.5 was more of a 19T.
I think the thing is that there is too much adjustment in a Stock Class. Now we are on computers changing profiles of the ESC, using advanced and retarded timing on motors and more.
So you tell the new guy/gal to join mod so they can learn the car. So they go out and find the cheapest setup they can for a 17.5, the old havoc/17.5 setup, with a 15C lipo they are excited. Well they put it on the track and they are getting run over on the straight away by cars that have Modified Top end speeds but are running 17.5 setups!
So the newbie runs the same equipment just swaps in a 9.5 motor throws it down in the mod class and he/she is just as fast as the other cars now... they are bouncing all over the place because they are overpowered but thats driving they feel they will get better but now the field is level.
I run mod offroad as my main choice, And my B44 or T4 have lrp sphere speed controls running 6.5 and 7.5 motors running a 28C battery, If I am not near the front it was because i screwed up not because i was out powered...
Now I recently ran touring cars and decided I would start with stock... so I pulled a sphere out of my offroad rig and threw it in with a 17.5, geared it to where it was supposed to be and up the punch profiles on the ESC to the highest.
Now the car was fine, felt like when i ran brushed 27T in TC's 2 years back. The first heat came around and if I didnt get just swallowed alive on just about every portion of the track, cars were driving through me on the straightway or having to brake check because they were on me like I was running a 4 cell battery pack... So since this was a larger regional race I had to upgrade to compete... So 50C battery in, new X12 motor in, pulled the Sphere and Borrowed a SPX ESC for the weekend. Now I was still being pulled on the straightaway just a touch by the Tekin Turbo but the car was competitive. I went from being a road block to being on TQ pace a few heats, now I fell off that pace because of lack of talent
but speed wise I was there All it took was a $125 battery, $90 dollar motor, and a seperate $200 speed control designed for stock specific racing. When I could have ran a 7.5 with the what is now a dinosaur sphere esc and the old 28C battery and just turned down the EPA if it was a touch too fast in the mod class and had plenty of motor to be competitive equipment wise.
Long story Short.... The speeds and Cost to get into stock racing are making it tough for newcomers to get into the sport. And it is not always about winning but you want to be able to compete right, and if you do not have SXX stock spec or Tekin RS speed controls and a 35C or higher battery you can not compete in stock classes today, and then the ya its racing so it is expensive... yes but it is now cheaper to run Mod you dont have to worry about the Flavor of the month ESC
01-29-2010, 12:44 PM
#37
I dont know Jim...Ken's track has got so much bite you can just about backflip and 1/8. Ha!
I think foam mod touring is alot more like 1/8 than you think as far as driving style. I done both with various levels of success/failure!HA!
Doesnt everyone steer with the throttle?! Ha!
I get your point but general concept is to make the slow class unattractive to an experienced racer but get people into the hobby,driving and tuning for a beginner,budget,less skilled racer etc.
Open class is not limited by equipment of the week as you have way more power than you could ever use.
Limiting traction will never work as it will just make the cars even harder to drive and it will turnoff newbies/budget racers
My local track run the mini nationals(carpet) and they have two classes box stock and open...seems to work and their turnout has always been good for the events.
Jamie
I think foam mod touring is alot more like 1/8 than you think as far as driving style. I done both with various levels of success/failure!HA!
Doesnt everyone steer with the throttle?! Ha!
I get your point but general concept is to make the slow class unattractive to an experienced racer but get people into the hobby,driving and tuning for a beginner,budget,less skilled racer etc.
Open class is not limited by equipment of the week as you have way more power than you could ever use.
Limiting traction will never work as it will just make the cars even harder to drive and it will turnoff newbies/budget racers
My local track run the mini nationals(carpet) and they have two classes box stock and open...seems to work and their turnout has always been good for the events.
Jamie
01-29-2010, 12:51 PM
#38
Stock was in the begining a class for beginners that could compete under fair circumstanses. But know it is almost as fast as modified and now its barely stock anymore. and all these new stuff to improve the speed doesnt really help this.
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01-29-2010, 01:41 PM
#39
Ya... What he said!
I agree with the OP.
The last six or seven years I've been racing nitro, practically every class out there on and off-road. Recently a carpet track opened up nearby, and I purchased a 1/12, a class I've been dying to try but had no facilities nearby to run on. We run open mod. I love the class, my favorite by far. It gives me the same feeling as 1/8 on-road which was my favorite class previously.
Being hooked on the 1/12, I started researching for big races to go to. Lucky me the snowbirds is going on right now, so I've been watching online as it unfolds. I am not new to racing or even big races, but all in nitro. It's been an interesting experience watching it all. And I am sad to say I don't feel like I missed out on much. It's just not the same atmosphere as nitro, where if you're fast, you're fast. Everybody else work on getting better. Where if you have a race with 300 entries, and two classes you know you are going up against at least 100 other quality drivers.
Man, what a bunch of whiners are electric racers!!! this esc this, this esc that, battery here, battery there, close racing, cars are too fast, car breaking track, God forbid I have to actually learn something new....etc. Man up!!! Drive within your limits!
From what I have researched I see that most of these esc and similar issues are null in mod.
The open playing field gives different ways of reaching the same solution.
In nitro, you pick your class, you go run the best you can with what you have, if your not fast enough you end up in a low main. Simple as that. There are stock motors, mod motors, different nitro percentages, pipes to change your powerband, and different clutch settings. Guess what they all run together, because they are all just tuning options, and in the end if you can't handle a fast race car AND run clean lines you are not going to end up in the A-main.
Want close racing? Ever since I started racing, I was told that's what the mains system is for. People around the same speed race together, doesn't matter if its A or Z main, Pro or newbie. Maybe electric racers can't bear the thought of running in the g-main?
Watching the race as a newb to electric races, I was shocked by many things. I've heard of the snowbirds forever, heard how big their racer turnout was, 500 to 600 entries. Shocked to see only 15 racers in 1/12 mod, during practice. I have seen the same names in the slower classes as in the faster classes. So I thought, hmmm, maybe it's just a way to get more track time at the event. Could be, or is it the big fish small pond thing.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying nitro is better. But I do like their race system better. I do like the speed and agility of mod electrics.
True spec racing is a very difficult thing to implement. Spec racing in my view, is same chassis, same tires, same body, same motor, esc, batteries.... etc. Same everything, that is spec. The closest thing I've seen to that type of spec racing is VRC. So there you have it. You want cheap spec racing go race VRC! everybody else man up and drive!!!
The last six or seven years I've been racing nitro, practically every class out there on and off-road. Recently a carpet track opened up nearby, and I purchased a 1/12, a class I've been dying to try but had no facilities nearby to run on. We run open mod. I love the class, my favorite by far. It gives me the same feeling as 1/8 on-road which was my favorite class previously.
Being hooked on the 1/12, I started researching for big races to go to. Lucky me the snowbirds is going on right now, so I've been watching online as it unfolds. I am not new to racing or even big races, but all in nitro. It's been an interesting experience watching it all. And I am sad to say I don't feel like I missed out on much. It's just not the same atmosphere as nitro, where if you're fast, you're fast. Everybody else work on getting better. Where if you have a race with 300 entries, and two classes you know you are going up against at least 100 other quality drivers.
Man, what a bunch of whiners are electric racers!!! this esc this, this esc that, battery here, battery there, close racing, cars are too fast, car breaking track, God forbid I have to actually learn something new....etc. Man up!!! Drive within your limits!
From what I have researched I see that most of these esc and similar issues are null in mod.
The open playing field gives different ways of reaching the same solution.
In nitro, you pick your class, you go run the best you can with what you have, if your not fast enough you end up in a low main. Simple as that. There are stock motors, mod motors, different nitro percentages, pipes to change your powerband, and different clutch settings. Guess what they all run together, because they are all just tuning options, and in the end if you can't handle a fast race car AND run clean lines you are not going to end up in the A-main.
Want close racing? Ever since I started racing, I was told that's what the mains system is for. People around the same speed race together, doesn't matter if its A or Z main, Pro or newbie. Maybe electric racers can't bear the thought of running in the g-main?
Watching the race as a newb to electric races, I was shocked by many things. I've heard of the snowbirds forever, heard how big their racer turnout was, 500 to 600 entries. Shocked to see only 15 racers in 1/12 mod, during practice. I have seen the same names in the slower classes as in the faster classes. So I thought, hmmm, maybe it's just a way to get more track time at the event. Could be, or is it the big fish small pond thing.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying nitro is better. But I do like their race system better. I do like the speed and agility of mod electrics.
True spec racing is a very difficult thing to implement. Spec racing in my view, is same chassis, same tires, same body, same motor, esc, batteries.... etc. Same everything, that is spec. The closest thing I've seen to that type of spec racing is VRC. So there you have it. You want cheap spec racing go race VRC! everybody else man up and drive!!!
01-29-2010, 01:48 PM
#40
Right now my track is lucky to have 5 racers. When some sees how fast my car is they ask about getting one. But as soon I tell them how much it cost there eyes glaze over, and they run for the hills. So I am looking for a cheap way to get them in. Stock class with slow cars is best. Most newbies are hammer fisted and dangerous with a 21.5. A 10.5 touring car can break a person foot. Do you really want a newbie with a 3.5 out on the track?
01-29-2010, 04:15 PM
#41
Right now my track is lucky to have 5 racers. When some sees how fast my car is they ask about getting one. But as soon I tell them how much it cost there eyes glaze over, and they run for the hills. So I am looking for a cheap way to get them in. Stock class with slow cars is best. Most newbies are hammer fisted and dangerous with a 21.5. A 10.5 touring car can break a person foot. Do you really want a newbie with a 3.5 out on the track?
01-29-2010, 07:19 PM
#42
01-29-2010, 07:29 PM
#43
Tech Master
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oreganastan Pacific Wonderland home to Indoor Farming
Posts: 1,059
01-29-2010, 08:03 PM
#44
Tech Adept
The problem with stock is the sand baggers who will not move up into mod, I thought the stock class was the intermediate class but it is full of trophy hunters with deep pockets. How can a young fulla compete with the budgets of these seasoned racers and their technology.
One solution would be to ban timing adjustment on speed controls, make them fixed, but then something else would turn up.
Or...
You are correct move into modified, look at 1/8th scale racing there is no stock class, no motor limits just people who race. You make into a final and if you do well you bump up, no problems.
Ditch the stock class boys, leave it for the sandbaggers and the trophy hunters, they cannot cut up with the big boys anyway!! in the end you will be faster than them.
One solution would be to ban timing adjustment on speed controls, make them fixed, but then something else would turn up.
Or...
You are correct move into modified, look at 1/8th scale racing there is no stock class, no motor limits just people who race. You make into a final and if you do well you bump up, no problems.
Ditch the stock class boys, leave it for the sandbaggers and the trophy hunters, they cannot cut up with the big boys anyway!! in the end you will be faster than them.
01-29-2010, 08:34 PM
#45
I call BS on this. I mean really if you wanted to ensure making the A main at a big event then you would sign up for the mod class. Most of the time there are less than 10 racers in the class. It is far from a given with all the talent in the stock class that someone would race in that class and just expect to win.