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Old 02-09-2010, 09:19 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by tc3team View Post
If clubs are that bothered about the newcomer, make a silver can class for them. Cheap and slower in comparison to brushless.

The latest brushless ESC wont make a single bit of difference, quite a few of them support brushed motors which is good for when the time is right for a guy to switch over to brushless, and the seasoned racer probably wont feel like joining a slow motor class.
Thats not a good idea. I just started with onroad and racing with brushed motors is the worst thing i ever did. Invite them directly to brushless and LiPo. Skip the other motors. Invite them to those things thats already allowed in racing so they can just step it up.

but ontopic. Still there is a problem with faster motors for this certain stock class. we should have Mod and stock(21,5). and where it allowes for example in the U.S they can have 13,5 and all that to.


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Old 02-09-2010, 09:49 AM   #377
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Thats not a good idea. I just started with onroad and racing with brushed motors is the worst thing i ever did. Invite them directly to brushless and LiPo. Skip the other motors. Invite them to those things thats already allowed in racing so they can just step it up.

but ontopic. Still there is a problem with faster motors for this certain stock class. we should have Mod and stock(21,5). and where it allowes for example in the U.S they can have 13,5 and all that to.


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Maybe I am looking at cost too much, but almost everyone
has a spare silver can motor spare if one is needed.

If a newcomer has a brushless speed control that operates a brushed motor, all they have to do is buy a brushless motor when the time is right for them.

It separates the racing enough to make it cheaper and slower.

And the pro's will be less tempted to go into a class with an old motor, maybe

The trouble is a lot of potential racers wanting to start racing have already purchased their equipment, more often than not, it's not suitable for racing with.....
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:02 AM   #378
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Here in oz we run

540 along with 21.5 at club level
stock 17.5
super stock 10.5
mod Which is only run at comp level
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:56 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
I asked this same question in another thread. The manufacturing of brushless is of course different. And the cost of making higher wind motors is actually more than the low turn motors. So we are actually getting a price break on spec motors. Also ROAR does have a price limit on brushless motors:

8.8.2.2 The maximum retail price of a 05 brushless motor shall be $149.00.
Yep, now all we need is a limit on the controller as well. $149.99 MSRP limit for the brushless controller for 17.5/21.5 classes. Keep in mind that this is Manufactures Suggested Retail Price (NOT street price), so a Tekin RS, which has a MSRP of $270.00 would NOT be allowed for stock classes. About the only "cheater" ESC that would be allowed would be the Mamba PRO, as it is $149.95 MSRP. It would force the other manufacturers to lower prices to the realm of "more affordable" on current product or develop new product to compete. If Castle Creations can make a competitive product at $149.95 then there is no reason why everyone else cannot.

By designing the rules this way, the manufactures may still offer all the bells and whistles that they can build into a $150 package and at the same time the stock class racer knows that they will only need to spend $150 at most to get an ESC that is competitive.

While this will not curb the one-upping of the manufacturers introducing a new product that makes all others obsolete, it will mean that the new "flavor of the week" will be, at most $150, not the crazy $300 and $400 that we've seen recently.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:30 PM   #380
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Yep, now all we need is a limit on the controller as well. $149.99 MSRP limit for the brushless controller for 17.5/21.5 classes. Keep in mind that this is Manufactures Suggested Retail Price (NOT street price), so a Tekin RS, which has a MSRP of $270.00 would NOT be allowed for stock classes. About the only "cheater" ESC that would be allowed would be the Mamba PRO, as it is $149.95 MSRP. It would force the other manufacturers to lower prices to the realm of "more affordable" on current product or develop new product to compete. If Castle Creations can make a competitive product at $149.95 then there is no reason why everyone else cannot.

By designing the rules this way, the manufactures may still offer all the bells and whistles that they can build into a $150 package and at the same time the stock class racer knows that they will only need to spend $150 at most to get an ESC that is competitive.

While this will not curb the one-upping of the manufacturers introducing a new product that makes all others obsolete, it will mean that the new "flavor of the week" will be, at most $150, not the crazy $300 and $400 that we've seen recently.
Please....ARGUE me about what can go wrong about the following system?

What I don't understand is....why there is a LIMIT? Ban? or tell ppl you cannot do this and cannot do that..? Why wasting all these time and effort?

Why there is a CAP? Why telling TEKIN you cannot develope the V206 software or tell LRP you cannot do the SXX Stock Spec II? Why ppl has V203 cannot use that simply because it is TOO FAST compare to the other brand that is not as fast as V203?

There should be only 3 classes....MOD (13.5 and faster) Stock (17.5 motors only) and NOVICE (21.5 motor only). SPEC class (spec speedo and spec motor like 25.5 or 21.5...varies by series and organization and clubs).

What is wrong with buying the $179.99 speedo with free software upgrade? Please don't tell me we need to keep the cost LOW so more ppl can race. This is NOTa cheap hobby....everyone know upfront and they spend what they can afford. If they do realized that they cannot compete and no longer be able to spend, they should quit. Yes, it is racing, any kind of racing in this world involve spending money, alots of money....

I really don't like the term "CHEATER" here because someone is using the latest the greatest software that as long as you have money, you can get it "technology". This is year 2010...we do NOT want to go back to year 2000 when ppl can do the "SPECIAL MAGIC TOUCH" on the brushed motor that can boost the extra 10,000 rpm or extra VOLTAGE...there are NO CHEATER involve with the speedo mfr. They are only there to make their products better. If that is the SPEEDO that get the winning ticket, we MUST buy that...or be the 2nd, or 3rd. That is Racing....is always like that.

About the "COST" adjustment...you are wasting your time, 1st you have to convince ROAR, then you have to tell each MFR to lower their cost, then you have to enforce each TRACK to TECH these speedo.....when it is said and done, electric RC car should not required any batteries to power...I think.

I know some parent will spend $50 to buy the "BIBLE" of the Pinewood Racing Derby just so their kids can have the advantage over the others that cannot afford $50....isn't that FAIR? Absolutely...free country.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:30 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
Yep, now all we need is a limit on the controller as well. $149.99 MSRP limit for the brushless controller for 17.5/21.5 classes. Keep in mind that this is Manufactures Suggested Retail Price (NOT street price), so a Tekin RS, which has a MSRP of $270.00 would NOT be allowed for stock classes. About the only "cheater" ESC that would be allowed would be the Mamba PRO, as it is $149.95 MSRP. It would force the other manufacturers to lower prices to the realm of "more affordable" on current product or develop new product to compete. If Castle Creations can make a competitive product at $149.95 then there is no reason why everyone else cannot.

By designing the rules this way, the manufactures may still offer all the bells and whistles that they can build into a $150 package and at the same time the stock class racer knows that they will only need to spend $150 at most to get an ESC that is competitive.

While this will not curb the one-upping of the manufacturers introducing a new product that makes all others obsolete, it will mean that the new "flavor of the week" will be, at most $150, not the crazy $300 and $400 that we've seen recently.
These companies won't last long if they are not able to make a profit. There is not a huge markup in electronics.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #382
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There should be only 3 classes....MOD (13.5 and faster) Stock (17.5 motors only) and NOVICE (21.5 motor only). SPEC class (spec speedo and spec motor like 25.5 or 21.5...varies by series and organization and clubs).
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:45 PM   #383
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The sad part of this discussion is that there is no true "solution" for stock class. You can make any rules limiting ESC X or Motor Y all you want, there will always be someone to try to push/sneak past that envelope. Everyone wants to go as fast as they can and not learn how to actually "drive" their cars. Even newbies want to go as fast as possible without learning that their is an "art" to navigating a r/c car around a track on the shortest line possible. Plus, if you decide on designating a specific manufacturer for ESC X or Motor Y, there will always be complaints from those that don't own one and have to buy it or just comfortable with whatever brand they are currently using. Now with programmable ESCs, there goes a bigger monkey wrench into the works. Good luck with this continuing debate because it will be a long one.
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:49 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Solara View Post
Please....ARGUE me about what can go wrong about the following system?

What I don't understand is....why there is a LIMIT? Ban? or tell ppl you cannot do this and cannot do that..? Why wasting all these time and effort?

Why there is a CAP? Why telling TEKIN you cannot develope the V206 software or tell LRP you cannot do the SXX Stock Spec II? Why ppl has V203 cannot use that simply because it is TOO FAST compare to the other brand that is not as fast as V203?

There should be only 3 classes....MOD (13.5 and faster) Stock (17.5 motors only) and NOVICE (21.5 motor only). SPEC class (spec speedo and spec motor like 25.5 or 21.5...varies by series and organization and clubs).

What is wrong with buying the $179.99 speedo with free software upgrade? Please don't tell me we need to keep the cost LOW so more ppl can race. This is NOTa cheap hobby....everyone know upfront and they spend what they can afford. If they do realized that they cannot compete and no longer be able to spend, they should quit. Yes, it is racing, any kind of racing in this world involve spending money, alots of money....

I really don't like the term "CHEATER" here because someone is using the latest the greatest software that as long as you have money, you can get it "technology". This is year 2010...we do NOT want to go back to year 2000 when ppl can do the "SPECIAL MAGIC TOUCH" on the brushed motor that can boost the extra 10,000 rpm or extra VOLTAGE...there are NO CHEATER involve with the speedo mfr. They are only there to make their products better. If that is the SPEEDO that get the winning ticket, we MUST buy that...or be the 2nd, or 3rd. That is Racing....is always like that.

About the "COST" adjustment...you are wasting your time, 1st you have to convince ROAR, then you have to tell each MFR to lower their cost, then you have to enforce each TRACK to TECH these speedo.....when it is said and done, electric RC car should not required any batteries to power...I think.

I know some parent will spend $50 to buy the "BIBLE" of the Pinewood Racing Derby just so their kids can have the advantage over the others that cannot afford $50....isn't that FAIR? Absolutely...free country.
I and probably not many other cares about the cost. Baically everything in electric onroad cost the same money anyway. But the problem i see it that we are using 13,5 and 10,5 motors when they are as fast these days like a modified when comparing laptimes. And thats to fast.

We have to many classes, what is the point to drive 10,5? I cant find any!
in europe we use 13,5, 17,5 and maybe sometimes 21,5.
But in internationall races like DHI CUP i cant find any meening in driving one 13,5 class and a Modified? The 13,5 is almost as fast anyway!

Now, i dont say anything about the speedos becuse thats just fair for the companies to develop and sell stuff, or we wouldnt have this industry at all!

And electric touring wont be cheaper then it is now, brushless and LiPo, it is the best thing i have done this far, pretty much drive time and faster charging time. LOVE IT


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Old 02-09-2010, 01:53 PM   #385
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We don't need any of this. Two words...



Spec.


Class.


That's it. Run everything that came in it. Pick a spec tire, stipulate that you can swap the tx and rx, and that's it. Period.

It would work. "Experts" won't want to run it (and won't be allowed anyway), beginners will have a ball, nobody will be priced out of it, and it provides a great avenue to the more involved classes for the people who get hooked on racing and want to step up (which, by the way, is the whole point).

This exact conversation is 30 years old...before ESC's it was batteries, and before that it motors, and before that it was that all winners were just cheating, etc. The answer does not lie in regulating speed controllers, or the price of the parts.

What is needed is a beginner's class that actually caters to actual beginners. Spec racing is the best way to do that.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:05 PM   #386
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I and probably not many other cares about the cost. Baically everything in electric onroad cost the same money anyway. But the problem i see it that we are using 13,5 and 10,5 motors when they are as fast these days like a modified when comparing laptimes. And thats to fast.

We have to many classes, what is the point to drive 10,5? I cant find any!
in europe we use 13,5, 17,5 and maybe sometimes 21,5.
But in internationall races like DHI CUP i cant find any meening in driving one 13,5 class and a Modified? The 13,5 is almost as fast anyway!

Now, i dont say anything about the speedos becuse thats just fair for the companies to develop and sell stuff, or we wouldnt have this industry at all!

And electric touring wont be cheaper then it is now, brushless and LiPo, it is the best thing i have done this far, pretty much drive time and faster charging time. LOVE IT


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Did you just answered your own question 3 times...?

Yes...13.5 is TOO FAST with the software, and thats why, 13.5 is now part of the MOD motor family..what is wrong with that? Are we still stuck with the Novak GTB speedo with Novak SS 13.5 period and think that is the STOCK class..? Really..?

If you own a 13.5 motor....congratulation, you are qualified to race MOD class now, along with the WORLD CHAMPION drivers. Snowbirds 2 weeks ago...Professional Mod class, 26 laps 5.06 and 13.5 class, 26 laps, 5.08....if you are racing 13.5 with the fastest software, you are only 2 second slower then these WC driver using 6.5T motor...now, can 13.5 still call SUPER STOCK...? Not since this year if you ask me....
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:13 PM   #387
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Did you just answered your own question 3 times...?

Yes...13.5 is TOO FAST with the software, and thats why, 13.5 is now part of the MOD motor family..what is wrong with that? Are we still stuck with the Novak GTB speedo with Novak SS 13.5 period and think that is the STOCK class..? Really..?

If you own a 13.5 motor....congratulation, you are qualified to race MOD class now, along with the WORLD CHAMPION drivers.
I probably did answer my own question 3 times

haha.


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Old 02-09-2010, 02:34 PM   #388
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Why not just follow ROAR rules?

17.5 is stock, 13.5 is super stock, anything higher is modified, then go have fun racing whatever class your interested in and have a shot at winning (because winning is really fun).

don't worry about speed control technology. Even if a 13.5 is a fast as a modified on one track, it will be just as fast as 13.5's on a bigger track. Some small tracks a 17.5 will be just as fast as 13.5 and modified class. That is totally track dependent. Smart racers will choose the right motor speed (or speed control settings) for the track conditions.

If you want on-road touring car racing to grow in popularity, your totally looking in the wrong place. Go back outside to publicly exposed parking lot racing and offer novice classes (run-what-you-brung) and gearbox classes for off-road cars.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:40 PM   #389
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a new battery technology closer to 6v, with similar perforamnce as lipo that can safely dump would be nice...
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:07 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Solara View Post
Please....ARGUE me about what can go wrong about the following system?

What I don't understand is....why there is a LIMIT? Ban? or tell ppl you cannot do this and cannot do that..? Why wasting all these time and effort?

Why there is a CAP? Why telling TEKIN you cannot develope the V206 software or tell LRP you cannot do the SXX Stock Spec II? Why ppl has V203 cannot use that simply because it is TOO FAST compare to the other brand that is not as fast as V203?

There should be only 3 classes....MOD (13.5 and faster) Stock (17.5 motors only) and NOVICE (21.5 motor only). SPEC class (spec speedo and spec motor like 25.5 or 21.5...varies by series and organization and clubs).

What is wrong with buying the $179.99 speedo with free software upgrade? Please don't tell me we need to keep the cost LOW so more ppl can race. This is NOTa cheap hobby....everyone know upfront and they spend what they can afford. If they do realized that they cannot compete and no longer be able to spend, they should quit. Yes, it is racing, any kind of racing in this world involve spending money, alots of money....

I really don't like the term "CHEATER" here because someone is using the latest the greatest software that as long as you have money, you can get it "technology". This is year 2010...we do NOT want to go back to year 2000 when ppl can do the "SPECIAL MAGIC TOUCH" on the brushed motor that can boost the extra 10,000 rpm or extra VOLTAGE...there are NO CHEATER involve with the speedo mfr. They are only there to make their products better. If that is the SPEEDO that get the winning ticket, we MUST buy that...or be the 2nd, or 3rd. That is Racing....is always like that.

About the "COST" adjustment...you are wasting your time, 1st you have to convince ROAR, then you have to tell each MFR to lower their cost, then you have to enforce each TRACK to TECH these speedo.....when it is said and done, electric RC car should not required any batteries to power...I think.

I know some parent will spend $50 to buy the "BIBLE" of the Pinewood Racing Derby just so their kids can have the advantage over the others that cannot afford $50....isn't that FAIR? Absolutely...free country.
It's really quite simple. There was a purchase price limit on brushed stock motors. Now that all the voodoo to make "stock" motors fast happens in the ESC, why shouldn't there be a limit on them?

Furthermore, how would an organization such as ROAR show favortisim to one single manufacturer and spec thier ESC for for this proposed "Novice" class of yours? Perhpas they pick and choose a "hand-out" ESC like they used to do with stock motors? That will be $200 for your race entry fee sir, but that includes your hand-out ESC for the race. LOL!
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