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Old 02-07-2010, 09:45 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
because its MY money and its FUN. some people actually enjoy the tickering part of the sport/hobby, isn't that why people bought dyno's, bags of springs and brushes, and tried many different magic comm drops. only now we use a lap top instead of all that. nothing has changed if you really think about it,

as far as sandbagging, to me sandbaggin is when you hold back and run a few feet ahead or behind until the finish, if your balls out, it ain't sand baggin
So your saying you like to kill the slower guys chances of winning in other words? That's cool dude

I think your definition of sand bagging is completely different from what alot of people think. You can tinker with timing and gearing in mod. I don't see the point of doing all that in stock. Why Jack with all this stuff to make the supposed to be slow class fast. Why not just go fast?
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:13 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
Jiml,
I respect your opinion but not sure I'm buying your argument. This segment you are describing really sounds like a parking lot basher. In my opinion there are far more opportunities for them to cheaply enjoy the hobby than for the racers. They can get a Hot Bodies Cyclone RTR or TC4 RTR for around $250 and do everything you describe at a local parking lot or tennis court. If somebody has no real interest in racing all this back and forth about what is stock vs what isn't and whether things are too fast are irrellevant. Those are issues for racers. Does a person who doesn't care about racing and is getting enjoyment out of their less expensive car drop the hobby because of what a racer is buying? On the other side of the coin do you know any racers who have quit because they just felt like running their car up and down the street and became frustrated because their carbon fiber wonder wasn't quite suited for doing so? I think these are two distinct segments and one doesn't really influence the other to any large extent.

If we want to grow the racing segment maybe there should be more attempts to appeal to people that have done other types of racing and are either too old or too broke to continue? Before getting old and fat I used to race motocross and surprisingly a lot of the principals of getting faster translate. This really fills a void that I missed and at 38 I have more disposable income to spend on the hobby. Perhaps an older demographic is a better target than a broke 16 year old who will bail the minute some honey flashes a smile. Some of us are looking for any reason to get out of the house.

Wow, that was long winded. Anyway it is cool that you are so passionate about the hobby and want it to grow.

Later,
Chuck
Very good written! +1!

I myself is so broke that i can only afford driving electric at the moment. So the "cheapness" in touring is there whatever you drive stock or mod, same cost basically.

But about the stock problems, as you say. this is about racers, not non racers in stock. I still think that they should have rules on what esc, motors that should be competative?
OR LIST THOSE THAT ARE COMPETATIVE!

Today the stock class is way to fast, no doubt. 17,5 motors are going as fast as the 19T motors with 5 cell did before. They are maybe even faster!
I would recomend a stock class 21,5, a 13,5 in the US maybe or where it is still big, and Modified.
The stock class is for beginners and people that might think other classes is to fast.
But now, the beginners and the "going to fast" people cant enjoy it the same way, it is to fast these days. and some actually want to be competative but they cant handle faster cars.

I myself can control a modified pretty good even i just started doing indoor racing. but everyone cant even after 2-3 years maybe. Thats why the stock class is aviable.

BTW, i think we are saying the same thing over and over again XD haha. we all know the solution. right?


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Old 02-08-2010, 01:58 AM   #318
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21.5 + 13.5 + mod seem a good idea.

There is no real point in running 10.5 nowadays.

And 17.5 is too close to both 21.5 and 13.5,I think.

Having a very noticeable speed gap between the "slow" and "medium" is a good idea to me because it prevents good drivers from staying in such a slow class, and it prevents not-so-good drivers from being eaten alive in 13.5 because they are not clean enough and overestimated their skill.

Seriously, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of world ranking in RC, just like in tennis. Don't know if/how it's feasible, though.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:36 AM   #319
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this is the ONLY issue, stock & super stock (and to a lesser degree mod) have radically increased speed over the last 2 years due to ESC & LiPo. nobody wants to acknowledge it, but i have 2 years of smashed lap records that prove it. We race weekly and often have races where EVERY touring car class lap record is broken (except silver can classes, which in some cases have 5+ year old records). We run a different track layout each week and keep records for each layout. In some cases 10.5t is faster than old 5 cell mod was and current 17.5t is faster than old 19t brushed..
This is one reason why most of the time i'm still racing on a 10x15m track, a 27t motor will still be almost as competitive as a 13.5 if it needs to be, as theres only so much power you can use before you run out of road...

This at least gives an average joe or experienced racer with older equipment half a chance of getting competitive without the cost of brushless, they just need to keep the motor in good shape.

The development in technology (and now software) in r/c has been huge, its been down to individual clubs to make decisions on what classes are most suitable.

ESCs, motors, lipo's, where is it going to end? All of these have made us faster, and made it harder for the newcomer to get used to a comfortable speed.

This in turn forces any racer to learn new things and spend more money - 2 reasons why some people leave rc.

I don't like buying the latest technology to keep up, but if thats what I need to do, i'll do it all the time i'm still happy to be in the hobby....

I like a close race where the winner deserves his or her win, and thats what I get
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Last edited by tc3team; 02-08-2010 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:03 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by heretic View Post
21.5 + 13.5 + mod seem a good idea.

There is no real point in running 10.5 nowadays.

And 17.5 is too close to both 21.5 and 13.5,I think.

Having a very noticeable speed gap between the "slow" and "medium" is a good idea to me because it prevents good drivers from staying in such a slow class, and it prevents not-so-good drivers from being eaten alive in 13.5 because they are not clean enough and overestimated their skill.

Seriously, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of world ranking in RC, just like in tennis. Don't know if/how it's feasible, though.
Actually here in sweden we had before 27T and 19T and mod. And most of them started in 27T, and then they moved up to 19T and then to modified. it was a natural step.

BUT!


It cost more money to move 3 classes. You have to buy different motors. but it might be more natural step for people. This way we can grow more fast drivers. But it might not be a very good way if you want to bring people into the sport or have big number of people in every class.
But also as you said, it prevents people stay in the slowest class. becuse the most of them will take the step to the class thats faster.

The world ranking thing isnt bad! But isnt that the same as IFMAR? kinda, almost everyone knows who Marc Rheinhard is by now :P hehe.


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Old 02-08-2010, 07:49 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING View Post
I can tell you right now if I were to run stock I would own one of each. And if not? I would own 5-6 Novaks and swap rotors and cans till I found the miracle one in my stock. I would own a resistance meter and a rotor strength tester.
No one would be able to catch me. I would drive like a mod racer on steroids and with enough money to buy the win. You would swear I was cheating. Factory drivers would dream of the speed I could buy.

In mod we race for the win. Not pay for it.
One of those 5 guys you mentioned that still races on-road in your area does it on perhaps the smallest budget of just about anybody in competitive racing, and he wins more often than anybody. So even if you showed up with 100 different motors, and 500 different rotors, you'd still get beat by a guy running the same motor he has for the last year or more. So then what would your excuse be?
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:58 AM   #322
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I know I said that no more vfrom me on this,but got to thinking.With this much input on the subject,there is nothing wrong,stock is stronger than ever,go to novice for awhile and refrain from stock classes.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:24 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Yes, but you got into the hobby to go racing. You understand the concepts of practicing your line and fine adjustments to go faster. And yes there are still people like you coming into the hobby, and thank goodness for that. The problem is there aren't enough.

There are people out there who don't care about getting better. They just want to come out and have a good time. A cheap car with a cheap motor and battery is all they want, and if they can keep up with their friends, they're happy. But if they come into a track and see people spending tons of money on the slowest class, they will walk right back out.

We, as racers, have completely ignored this segment of the hobby, and as a result we have no growth.
WAHOO! EXACTLY!

And, the important part about this is that what will happen if we cater to this crowd is that once they get a taste of racing, some % of those people will grow into more serious racing enthusiast hobbiests. THIS is where the real growth comes from, and THIS is where a true Slash-like spec class for on-road would be of assistance IMO.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:33 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
because its MY money and its FUN. some people actually enjoy the tickering part of the sport/hobby, isn't that why people bought dyno's, bags of springs and brushes, and tried many different magic comm drops. only now we use a lap top instead of all that. nothing has changed if you really think about it,
This, in my opinion, is why there is nothing terribly "wrong" with 'stock' class racing. I'm just now getting back into it, and I'm a little disappointed that all of the work I put into learning how to cut comms, tune springs, cut and condition brushed, push batteries, etc. is useless now. That part of it was at least half the fun for me. If, as I come back, I learn that there is sstill lots of value in paying attention to the minutia of car tuning and setup both, I'll be happy.

Again, the problem as I see it is that people are still clinging to the idea that 'stock' is supposed to be a beginner-friendly, cheap form of racing. That idea was pretty much dead about a week after the first stock class races were held in the 80's. Let's get over it...it didn't work (and that's ok it turns out).
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:45 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
If we want to grow the racing segment maybe there should be more attempts to appeal to people that have done other types of racing and are either too old or too broke to continue? Before getting old and fat I used to race motocross and surprisingly a lot of the principals of getting faster translate. This really fills a void that I missed and at 38 I have more disposable income to spend on the hobby. Perhaps an older demographic is a better target than a broke 16 year old who will bail the minute some honey flashes a smile. Some of us are looking for any reason to get out of the house.
Hey Chuck, that's a good line of thought too. I road raced bikes for several years, am now 42 with a young child at home, so...you guessed it, I'm not racing any more. I am one of the people you're talking about.

BTW is the 955i in your name a ref. to the Triumph street bike? I had a Daytona 1200 for a few years and loved it...made a fantastic S/T bike.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:15 AM   #326
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Fine, I'll run mod if someone pays the extra expense for:

Faster wearing tires

Multiple mod motors (some turns are faster depending on size of track). I've used the same tekin redline 17.5 motor for the past year and a half.

Faster wearing parts

More broken parts

Lexan bodies that wear faster

And who says everyone loves to go faster? Isn't that subjective? I prefer a capped speed where driving line and passing skill win you races not who can handle the most motor. And before you say it, I know you can get by running a turn your confortable with but you won't be competive against the guys that can drive with more motor.

Last edited by malkiy; 02-08-2010 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:28 AM   #327
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Whats the point to Sedan if there is no mountain to climb ?

None of the so called expert stock driver's say they should move up .


Sedan looks all about the win , nothing about improvement & achievement ...


No wonder no ones races mod sedan , must be very few good drivers left !!!



Direct result of killing the beginner class .....
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:28 AM   #328
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Electric TC should follow in the footsteps of 8th scale Nitro Off-road!

ONE motor, be it 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 or 6.5.

Then break the class seperation down by SKILL level.

Sportsman, Intermediate and Pro.

Have a break out system.. If you sign up in Sports. and your qual. Times puts you in the top 8 of Interm. you're moved up. If you sign up for Interm. and your time puts you in the top 8 of Pro..guess what You're moved up. No questions. No ifs, ands or Buts.

Electric touring car is the only form of RC I have ever seen where the majority of the "sponsored" guys NEVER WANT TO MOVE UP!

To get TC back to where it was 3-4 yrs. ago there needs to be some MAJOR shaking up..the current path is not working.

Tracks are closing, racers leaving to goto other forms of RC. Always a thread on here about this driver should/shouldn't be running this or that class. Drama after EVERY MAJOR RACE. New ESC, Battery, Tire, Motor, and so on every month..

ITS BROKEN as it is and needs a fix'in.
Until its going somewhat down the right path...See you guys inthe Dirt! Less drama there. LOL
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:33 AM   #329
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George,

onroad modifed and offroad modified are completely different. I almost never see you running onroad modifed let alone onroad modified on a tight track. Why do you comment in the onroad section when you race offroad 99% of the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Whats the point to Sedan if there is no mountain to climb ?

None of the so called expert stock driver's say they should move up .


Sedan looks all about the win , nothing about improvement & achievement ...


No wonder no ones races mod sedan , must be very few good drivers left !!!



Direct result of killing the beginner class .....
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:36 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by imprsme View Post
Electric TC should follow in the footsteps of 8th scale Nitro Off-road!

ONE motor, be it 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 or 6.5.

Then break the class seperation down by SKILL level.

Sportsman, Intermediate and Pro.

Have a break out system.. If you sign up in Sports. and your qual. Times puts you in the top 8 of Interm. you're moved up. If you sign up for Interm. and your time puts you in the top 8 of Pro..guess what You're moved up. No questions. No ifs, ands or Buts.

Electric touring car is the only form of RC I have ever seen where the majority of the "sponsored" guys NEVER WANT TO MOVE UP!

To get TC back to where it was 3-4 yrs. ago there needs to be some MAJOR shaking up..the current path is not working.

Tracks are closing, racers leaving to goto other forms of RC. Always a thread on here about this driver should/shouldn't be running this or that class. Drama after EVERY MAJOR RACE. New ESC, Battery, Tire, Motor, and so on every month..

ITS BROKEN as it is and needs a fix'in.
Until its going somewhat down the right path...See you guys inthe Dirt! Less drama there. LOL
Are people leaving because of the stock class or could it be the way the economy has been for the last two years? People aren't going to race or buy new gear when their companies a cutting their wages, not giving them raises or firing them.
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