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Old 02-07-2010, 10:58 AM   #301
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Running with the fast guys is the best way to learn IMO.
doesn't that work for all the classes, not just mod
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:04 AM   #302
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doesn't that work for all the classes, not just mod
But you don't learn anything going slow. My first race, I stepped rite from 1/8th scale off road to 13.5 and did fine. Tried mod and I sucked.

And people cant say that mod racing is not close..

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Old 02-07-2010, 11:20 AM   #303
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Problem is that people don't see stock as a beginner class any more. Not at all.
Which is why it shouldn't be called stock any more.

There are poeple who never considered stock a beginner class. That's when the seeds of destrution were planted.
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:21 AM   #304
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There seems to be two different ideas of what stock class is among racers...

1. A slower class intended for less skilled drivers to start in before they advance to faster classes.

2. A motor specific (spec) class to bring highly competitive racers closer together speed wise for closer high performance racing.

Typically, beginners would start out in a novice or sportsman class. So I would say that stock class is #2 and not for beginners.
A novice cass works when there is a new group of racers (enough to run a class). Unfortunately at most onroad tracks there just aren't the new racers to make this happen. The new guys get thrown in with the slowest class (stock). Running one night with some of the current stock racers is all it takes to make them quit.
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:31 AM   #305
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we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, you can learn plenty going "slow". you learn lines, you learn setup, you learn tapping the brakes every so often. I remember one night I guy told me, my car is dailed, I never have to let of the trigger, I explained if you not letting off you doing it wrong, I had him follow me, while telling him, full, half, brake, coast, full, etc etc, around the track, he went faster, way faster. with limited power your setup is that much more important, and to me you can tell "easier" what a change does. And yes setup is very important with mod also, and all other stuff everyone is going to say, but you can't just make a blanket statement that you won't learn anything going "slow", oh yea did we forget that 17.5 is just as fast if not faster the 19T was two years ago.

I run both classes, at club races, for big events i run just mod lately, why, because there is LESS competition in MOD then there is in 17.5 and I'm going to have fun and hang out, running 17.5 theres a lot more pressure to do well.
why, because i know running mod, I'm going to be a back marker and 2 or 3 laps down to the Major names and I don't care, running against another nobody club hack like myself makes me want to do better.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:22 PM   #306
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Sounds like a many of you have been at this for a long time so hopefully you don't take this the wrong way. I started RC about seven months ago and race 17.5 stock rubber. Locally, this is the slowest of the TC classes not counting VTA. Never once was stock promoted as a beginner class and as a person with next to no RC experience everything seemed fast and everybody was destroying me on the track. The reason I chose stock was it seemed rational to go with the mildest motor. Never did I think that it was going to be slow or easy to drive. The key thing was the guys at the club were and continue to be encouraging and as the weeks go by I am slowly coming up to speed.

As far as cost, the expense of broken parts is mitigated mainly by paying attention, exhibiting throttle control, and practicing a ton. With the exception of practice the other two things cost nothing. Almost all of my equipment is second hand and the people pasting me on a weekly basis aren't all running new out of the box XRays. All said I have a Corally Phi with some decent electronics for around $500 and I know it can be done even cheaper. Seems pretty reasonable to me given this car could easily last a number of seasons.

Anyway off my soapbox. Just wanted to let you know, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, there are some new people coming into the hobby that are having a lot of fun. Not saying there isn't room for improvement but where I run people seem to be having a really good time.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:03 PM   #307
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Sounds like a many of you have been at this for a long time so hopefully you don't take this the wrong way. I started RC about seven months ago and race 17.5 stock rubber. Locally, this is the slowest of the TC classes not counting VTA. Never once was stock promoted as a beginner class and as a person with next to no RC experience everything seemed fast and everybody was destroying me on the track. The reason I chose stock was it seemed rational to go with the mildest motor. Never did I think that it was going to be slow or easy to drive. The key thing was the guys at the club were and continue to be encouraging and as the weeks go by I am slowly coming up to speed.

As far as cost, the expense of broken parts is mitigated mainly by paying attention, exhibiting throttle control, and practicing a ton. With the exception of practice the other two things cost nothing. Almost all of my equipment is second hand and the people pasting me on a weekly basis aren't all running new out of the box XRays. All said I have a Corally Phi with some decent electronics for around $500 and I know it can be done even cheaper. Seems pretty reasonable to me given this car could easily last a number of seasons.

Anyway off my soapbox. Just wanted to let you know, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, there are some new people coming into the hobby that are having a lot of fun. Not saying there isn't room for improvement but where I run people seem to be having a really good time.

Yes, but you got into the hobby to go racing. You understand the concepts of practicing your line and fine adjustments to go faster. And yes there are still people like you coming into the hobby, and thank goodness for that. The problem is there aren't enough.

There are people out there who don't care about getting better. They just want to come out and have a good time. A cheap car with a cheap motor and battery is all they want, and if they can keep up with their friends, they're happy. But if they come into a track and see people spending tons of money on the slowest class, they will walk right back out.

We, as racers, have completely ignored this segment of the hobby, and as a result we have no growth.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:58 PM   #308
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oh yea did we forget that 17.5 is just as fast if not faster the 19T was two years ago.
this is the ONLY issue, stock & super stock (and to a lesser degree mod) have radically increased speed over the last 2 years due to ESC & LiPo. nobody wants to acknowledge it, but i have 2 years of smashed lap records that prove it. We race weekly and often have races where EVERY touring car class lap record is broken (except silver can classes, which in some cases have 5+ year old records). We run a different track layout each week and keep records for each layout. In some cases 10.5t is faster than old 5 cell mod was and current 17.5t is faster than old 19t brushed.

Imagine being a better than average driver in 540 silver can class and making your next step to stock at the same level as 8.5t super stock speeds of 2 years ago? That is what people are doing today and for some reason it is accepted.
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:45 PM   #309
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Yes, but you got into the hobby to go racing. You understand the concepts of practicing your line and fine adjustments to go faster. And yes there are still people like you coming into the hobby, and thank goodness for that. The problem is there aren't enough.

There are people out there who don't care about getting better. They just want to come out and have a good time. A cheap car with a cheap motor and battery is all they want, and if they can keep up with their friends, they're happy. But if they come into a track and see people spending tons of money on the slowest class, they will walk right back out.

We, as racers, have completely ignored this segment of the hobby, and as a result we have no growth.
yea, thats why we go to a RACE TRACK to run our cars, cause we want to RACE.

those that don't car about getting better and are there just to have fun and kill time, should be getting there stuff used and run novice or VTA or whatever the FUN class is at your track.

We as racers have not ignored anything. Its those that manufactor RC stuff that have, thats why Traxxas is probably the number one manufactor, they cater to the basher, and thats where the money is. look at all the low cost OFF ROAD KITS now. everyone is following Traxxas lead, when Traxxas goes after the ON ROAD basher market, it will be the same. but right now, 95% of on roaders RACE and not Bash. at least I think so maybe.

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this is the ONLY issue, stock & super stock (and to a lesser degree mod) have radically increased speed over the last 2 years due to ESC & LiPo. nobody wants to acknowledge it, but i have 2 years of smashed lap records that prove it. We race weekly and often have races where EVERY touring car class lap record is broken (except silver can classes, which in some cases have 5+ year old records). We run a different track layout each week and keep records for each layout. In some cases 10.5t is faster than old 5 cell mod was and current 17.5t is faster than old 19t brushed.

Imagine being a better than average driver in 540 silver can class and making your next step to stock at the same level as 8.5t super stock speeds of 2 years ago? That is what people are doing today and for some reason it is accepted.
this is also why I say, 17.5 isn't the "stock" class anymore and needs a name change. or "they" need to come up with new specs for stock.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:00 PM   #310
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Even at the last ETS race (which ran a HUGE track) the 13.5 cars were running close to the same lap times as the Modified cars.
Ok, so why wouldnt you want to run mod then? If times are the same, whats the difference lol? In mod you can run a old sphere or a dang novak and wont be at a disadvantage compared to the same speedos in stock classes. I dont understand why you would WANT to spend all that money on esc's and lipos, motors etc..

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doesn't that work for all the classes, not just mod
Theres a line between that and sand bagging though.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:36 PM   #311
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+1. my mod with 2 year old esc/motor/batts is still faster and cheaper than my expensive stock setup. why pay more to go slower?

locally our mod guys have dropped down to stock (where most racers were) and now dominate the stock class. i have a feeling the stock guys will get disappointed and soon quit as i see entries in stock class have started to dwindle as well.

unfortunately it's the new escs with timing. hopefully things do sort out for the best.
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Old 02-07-2010, 07:54 PM   #312
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this is also why I say, 17.5 isn't the "stock" class anymore and needs a name change. or "they" need to come up with new specs for stock.
in the end, anything that slows stock and super stock down again to the old 27t & 19t speeds even if it means dynamic timing speedies stay.

i can say with CERTAINTY that a no timing speedy in 2 years will only improve maybe 1-2% (if at all). Who is to say 25.5t motors won't be just as fast as 17.5t motors in 2 years if we keep letting the speedy run free on timing?

Lets not also forget that most of these speedies use relatively low spec 8bit MCU's right now, imagine what might be done if they move up to faster MCU's with orders of magnitude higher processing power, more flash space, more accurate load sensing, 3d timing maps etc...
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:28 PM   #313
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You have to be progressive. The first lot of BL motors didn't even have timing on the can. When they brought out timing on the can I didn't hear anyone complain, they just bought a new motor.

If you want something that will bring it back to a real drivers class have a handout spec motor and speedie combo and the big race meets, it just has to be fast and affordable.

I had a year away from racing last year and just had my first race in ages, last time I ran Stock, it was with brushed and it is heaps quicker now. Lipo and adjustabilty in the speedies and motors has made it quick. I have an Tekin RS and it has made it easier to be fast but you still need to setup the car and drive it.
I remember when mod was a 10T brushed motor with 1800mh cells in a TA01, times change and you need to go with it. 17.5 is faster now than "old" mod these days, but so was the Brushed stock cars with 4600mh NiMh batteries.

Stock didn't mean "Stock" 5 years ago. How could expect a novice to come and run 27T and understand the "art" of re-building a stock motor and all the money that goes along with that.

As for there not being a nice step between classes, change Stock to 17.5, ditch the 540 class make it 21.5. And before anyone complains about not having a 540 class, When it was all brushed, I raced 540 and Stock at the pointy end for a whole interclub series. The difference in speeds between 540 and Stock was less than a second and with the money spent on new motors for 540, it would have been cheaper to buy a 21.5 BL system. The main problem it that everything has gotten quicker but 540 is about as fast as it can get therefore making a gap between 540 and Stock

Classes should be
Novice (540 chrome can)
21.5
17.5
10.5
Open

Ditch the words stock, super stock and mod, then there will be no confusion. I tried to get a mate back into racing and he was confused by the names, he used to run offroad back in the '80 and "stock" meant a chrome can!
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:30 PM   #314
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Ok, so why wouldnt you want to run mod then? If times are the same, whats the difference lol? In mod you can run a old sphere or a dang novak and wont be at a disadvantage compared to the same speedos in stock classes. I dont understand why you would WANT to spend all that money on esc's and lipos, motors etc..



Theres a line between that and sand bagging though.
because its MY money and its FUN. some people actually enjoy the tickering part of the sport/hobby, isn't that why people bought dyno's, bags of springs and brushes, and tried many different magic comm drops. only now we use a lap top instead of all that. nothing has changed if you really think about it,

as far as sandbagging, to me sandbaggin is when you hold back and run a few feet ahead or behind until the finish, if your balls out, it ain't sand baggin
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:34 PM   #315
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Yes, but you got into the hobby to go racing. You understand the concepts of practicing your line and fine adjustments to go faster. And yes there are still people like you coming into the hobby, and thank goodness for that. The problem is there aren't enough.

There are people out there who don't care about getting better. They just want to come out and have a good time. A cheap car with a cheap motor and battery is all they want, and if they can keep up with their friends, they're happy. But if they come into a track and see people spending tons of money on the slowest class, they will walk right back out.

We, as racers, have completely ignored this segment of the hobby, and as a result we have no growth.
Jiml,
I respect your opinion but not sure I'm buying your argument. This segment you are describing really sounds like a parking lot basher. In my opinion there are far more opportunities for them to cheaply enjoy the hobby than for the racers. They can get a Hot Bodies Cyclone RTR or TC4 RTR for around $250 and do everything you describe at a local parking lot or tennis court. If somebody has no real interest in racing all this back and forth about what is stock vs what isn't and whether things are too fast are irrellevant. Those are issues for racers. Does a person who doesn't care about racing and is getting enjoyment out of their less expensive car drop the hobby because of what a racer is buying? On the other side of the coin do you know any racers who have quit because they just felt like running their car up and down the street and became frustrated because their carbon fiber wonder wasn't quite suited for doing so? I think these are two distinct segments and one doesn't really influence the other to any large extent.

If we want to grow the racing segment maybe there should be more attempts to appeal to people that have done other types of racing and are either too old or too broke to continue? Before getting old and fat I used to race motocross and surprisingly a lot of the principals of getting faster translate. This really fills a void that I missed and at 38 I have more disposable income to spend on the hobby. Perhaps an older demographic is a better target than a broke 16 year old who will bail the minute some honey flashes a smile. Some of us are looking for any reason to get out of the house.

Wow, that was long winded. Anyway it is cool that you are so passionate about the hobby and want it to grow.

Later,
Chuck
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