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Old 01-27-2010, 12:16 PM   #1
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Default Is all of that XRAY T3 adjustability really necessary?

Keep in mind that that the following comments and questions are coming from a guy that has never raced electric before. I have a used T2'007 that I bought two year ago and I'm trying to figure out what to do with as I start getting into electric.

As I'm going through the T3 flash presentation at the Team XRAY site, I've been asking myself how necessary all this adjustability really is. It's great that all these adjustment options are available, but who really takes or has the time to sit there any try every permutation of all the different combinations for any given track to find that ultimate setup? Don't most people just settle for what they perceive as good enough or what other people say, and run with that?

Because my focus on electric has always been on XRAY cars and the other manufacturers don't provide as much info as XRAY does, I really don't know how adjustable the other cars are to the extent that the T3 is adjustable. When I look at product offerings by Hot Bodies, Tamiya and Kyosho, on the surface, those just seem so much easier to setup without having to worry about all these other adjustment possibilities. When I see guys like Rheinhard, Moore and Hara winning races, I wonder if these guys are fussing with their cars as much as the T3 racers are fussing with their cars or are they just doing the basic setup, checking weight distribution, dropping the car on the track and just racing it.

It would almost seem to me, that you're asking for more trouble with finding the right setup with a T3 than it would be to just take for granted that the other manufacturer's engineers know what the heck their doing and race some other brand instead. Are other manufacturer's cars engineered so poorly that you sit there at the pit table wishing that you could move every part one more mm in any direction to fix your setup problem? Or is the handling of other cars optimized/neutral enough so that you just have to make some basic setup changes and it's good to go?

I think I've been brainwashed into thinking XRAY is the way to go. Must be all those sexy trophy girls standing next to the XRAY guys.
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:22 PM   #2
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If you don't want to use the adjustments, well, don't. The manufacturers just put them there for selling points, it's up to you to use them. You don't have to make a thread about it. Juraj Hudy makes a car, then the team makes it work with the myriad of adjustments. Just copy a set-up sheet if you want.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:10 PM   #3
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Better to have the adjustment capabilities and not need them, then need them and not have them.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:53 PM   #4
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T3? Did you mention Hot Bodies? What extra adjustments are you talking about? The cars are very similar to me. I dont think the xray has any more adjustments to 'confuse you'.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:05 PM   #5
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As is the case with most top-level car kits, the massive amount of adjustments will not be able to be used to the degree they were designed by an average or below driver.

If you are a Mike Dumas or Mike Blackstock top level/skilled driver, you will want every bit of adjustment the cars offer.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:36 PM   #6
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I am not sure that any one driver will need or use all of the adjustability the Xray affords, but if you want to sell a car globally, you have to cater for every surface and track layout possible. On small technical tracks you probably use most of the adjustability of an Xray. Larger, outdoors type tracks are easy to set up your car for and probably only require a small range of adjustment, but in Europe there is a lot of variability in track surface/layout so it makes sense to make a car like that if you want to be successful in all their markets.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:57 PM   #7
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I think the T3's adjustment capabilities are meant to cover almost all
racing scenarios. Skilled driver is different from talented drivers, I bet
a talented driver can beat a skilled driver with a less adjustable car.

For an intermediate racer or hobbyist, these tons of setting adjustment
can be really confusing. Sure they give you a set-up book but it just
explains what each setting's do. I think the thread starter is looking
for a kit that is already "optimized" for all track conditions.

3 years ago I bought a TT01, and complained about it's lack of
adjustability. Sure the kit was easy to drive using silvercans but when
you upgrade the motor and batt, your kit will need serious adjustments
also to compensate to the added power. So I got stuck with the limits
of the TT01 and sold it. And now people are complaining about too many
adjustment options of a kit.

If it's too complicated, just follow the kit's initial setup and start from
there. Gain knowledge form xray's set up book and you'll be happy that
the T3 is blessed with all those setup options.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ark View Post
T3? Did you mention Hot Bodies? What extra adjustments are you talking about? The cars are very similar to me. I dont think the xray has any more adjustments to 'confuse you'.
he said he was watching a xray video, really don't think xray put a hot bodies in that video for him to compare the xray with.
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:28 PM   #9
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LOL i know what he was saying. What I was implying is that most cars have what xray have like chassis stiffeners, adjustable roll centres etc.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:42 PM   #10
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In order to use all the adjustments a modern car has, you need to know what each one does and why. You don't need to try every single possible combination, you just need to know what you want to change about the car's handling and what adjustment will best make that change.

To learn such things, there are a lot of good books out there on vehicle dynamics and race car suspension set-up.

Or, take a day of testing and try each adjustment one at a time. You're not looking to find the "ideal" set-up here, just learning what each one does. Then you will know what to change when you need the car to do something different.

Without that, copy someone's set-up and do standard changes to suit you.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:43 PM   #11
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They do, but not to the same level of infinite adjustability. Take for instance the flexichassis cutouts and post system (and top deck).
You could probably achieve the same state of tune on many other cars but it might be a litle bit more complicated to do it on the fly (i.e. trackside).
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:24 PM   #12
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Thanks to all for your insightful comments. I’m getting a better understanding of how things work on the electric side of the house.

For comparison, on the nitro side of the house, the top four cars are equally adjustable, meaning that if you put any of the cars on any track, no car has an advantage because it is more adjustable or any easier to adjust than the others. They have design and engineering differences of course, but those are fixed variables, if that makes any sense.

So the question becomes (niznai ), of the top four electric cars, is any car more adjustable than the others, to the point that it has a competitive advantage over the other cars based on the type of setup changes that need to be made? Meaning real changes, not the perceived need to change. How would you rank the top four electric cars in terms of adjustability?

But along these lines, lets say if a non-XRAY brand is primary focused on let’s say rubber tires on asphalt – or foam on carpet, is it possible that the manufacturer has already worked done most of the engineering to optimize that car for specific race types, such that it doesn’t need to concern itself with being as adjustable as an XRAY for that type of race? Perhaps things just don’t work this way – ha ha. As an example, is there one car that is considered better on a specific track surface using specific tires than the others?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:20 PM   #13
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I think what you want to know is all of the top cars are equally adjustable. I would have to say yes to that. Everything you can adjust on an xray you can adjust on a photon or tamiya 416 ect. Ect. What xray does better than anyone else is they tell you about it in their advertising and web site with the nice flash presentation. And I do believe that they do make the best car as far as quality and fit and finish. Plus online support is second to none. There is my two cents.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:04 PM   #14
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You have to keep in mind that company policy plays into the game too. xray has entered the game with the most ambitious plans and with such a game plan they simply had no choice but to offer everything possible.

I hate making tops of any kind and being the prehistoric dinosaur that I am, I run cars nobody ever heard of alongside my more modern cars. The end result is that my cars swap parts around to satisfy my driving taste. The best designs I find in something or other is adapted to fit other cars. For instance right now I run a Kawada Sigma2 which has the steering from a Yokomo SD-SSG and the rear hub carriers from a Tamiya TRF, the front driveshafts off an Xray and the front steering knuckles of an older Kawada Sigma (v1). Diff pulleys are for the front from a Corally RDX and the rear off a Losi JRX-S car.

So there you go.

If all you're trying to do is figure out what to buy and are not sure if Xray is worth the money, I can assure you it is. I have one and it has won me a championship (not only the car by itself, but in combination with electronics and so on, and perhaps a little bit of skill if I am allowed some bragging).

But the Kawada did that too (and it's a car that I love dearly for its originality and delicate-ness of design).
So did my Tamiya.
So did my Yokomo.
Now I am playing with the Avid from Robitronic and I have a Corally on the way from overseas.

So you see, there's nothing in it really.

It's a game of patience, attention and perseverance.

As for specifically designed cars (carpet vs asphalt) I think again that is not really necessary. You guys have some US-spec cars I suppose for carpet but I am not sure what carpet you run on, becasue on our carpet a spool would be a waste of time. To give you an example, one guy here runs an old Corally so stiff (3mm chassis), it basically should be absolute dog on carpet, yet he's the best in his class. And that's not because everybody else is crap. My Kawada for instance gives him a hard time and we swap leading all the time. His skill however means that he is capable of tuning and driving cars most other people would simply give up on. He even runs the kit Corally shocks which even the factory drivers ditch for the TRF ones (he was at some point sponsored by Corally).

TC5 from AE for instance proved a tough one to crack for our track, but again, we have a really good driver who stuck to it and it's an awesomely fast guy with it.

And we have people running Schumacher cars as well and they again are top performers, so I guess it's not the car but the driver/tuner that wins the race.

The main problem is our track is very technical and low grip, so stiff cars have to compensate for the chassis flex they don't have by running a very soft suspension and that's were the tuning skill really shines with these guys. Of course, an Xray allows you to set suspension softness easier by the clever use of variable valving in the pistons without taking the shocks apart, but that's not the only way to do it.

The upshot is that if you make it in the top at a difficult track such as ours, you are an accomplished driver and very few tracks will present problems with tuning for you. Most of the time our cars are so dialed you can basically take them on any other track and make the A-final with no other adjustments but a change of tire and probably a spool or oneway on the front (and we did it not only once). The other way doesn't always work.
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Last edited by niznai; 01-28-2010 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:51 PM   #15
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Default AND still good for joe average.

Arnt Xray really making a car thats designed for the top .05% ie SERIOUS RACING, no compromise.
AND still good for joe average.

I was going to mention TT01 but some one beat me to it
Kyosho RTR TF5 tub car: can still get podium finishes at club level. But who here would honestly buy one over a Xray 2008 ??
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