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Old 01-14-2010, 08:34 PM   #46
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If the sport wants to increase the involvement in LOCAL racing, there should not be any nationals. This class should be a developmental class for racers to develop driving skills, learn car setup and develop confidence to race in other classes. It has been my experience that the previous stock, production and spec classes tend to have racers spending money to buy the same equipment as the drivers at the national events, instead of developing what they have.

Classes that are raced at the national levels tend to require more investment in equipment to be competitive. My observation is that every season, racers go th the national events and come back to the local races with the car, radio, motor,battery of the year and the local driver has to "keep up with the Jones" to compete.

In the first paragraph, I mentioned spec classes. There have been several manufacturers that have created spec classes with national events. Again, racers spend greater amounts of money to compete at national events and then return to the local races with a competitive advantage due to the respources thay have accumulated to compete at the national level.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:35 PM   #47
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It's both the price and the competition. To be competitive drivers believe that it is necessary to spend more money. It's quite the vicious cycle.
That is true. I need to stress that you have to spend money on good equipment if you want to be at the top level of where you are at. You are not going to win using an RTR against a sponsored driver. The more you get better, the more you understand, and then being able to utilize the various options that better equipment can give you. That is the reason why I am against RTRs because that transition phase from a beginner to a novice is too short. You don't build your cars up from the nuts/bolts stage, you can't understand the mechanics involved. To me that is one huge trait that a novice should have leaving the beginner realm.

These days, that beginner is jumping onto the track with the speeds of the current 17.5, and that spells a recipe for disaster both on and off the track.

The change must be gradual and not spoon fed. In that matter, money must be spent wisely, but it must be spent.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:35 PM   #48
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I'm not going to get into motor and rules discussions, that is an entirely separate issue that needs to be discussed as well, but in a separate thread. This is about splitting up the drivers, not the motors.

This idea has worked quite well in the winged slot car world. It all started with the class Boxstock 12 at national events. This was supposed to be an entry level, very basic class for new racers. The problem was, it was a very fun and challenging class even for the pros. So it was split into "Pro" and "Am" along similar lines to what is in the ROAR proposal. This has worked so well that now all the classes with high car counts are split this way. Only the classes with low turnouts remain all in one.

And, this has trickled down to the regional and local level too. Not everyone gets high enough turnouts to do this but the series and tracks that do almost always split them up. Generally, the car rules are identical for both, it's just a split of the drivers though sometimes the pros might get a few extra things they can do.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:38 PM   #49
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We've had a little bit of success steering new drivers toward VTA, and specing the ESC on the Novak GTB. The speeds seem a lot more appropriate for new racers, and people seem to dig the muscle cars.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:46 PM   #50
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That is true. I need to stress that you have to spend money on good equipment if you want to be at the top level of where you are at. You are not going to win using an RTR against a sponsored driver
The opposite also holds true for the novice/sportsman racer...they are not going to win against a sponsored or veteran driver even with the best equipment possible. The new drivers need to know that to start with, no matter what equipment they have, they are not going to be competitive. The best advice for them is to buy what they can afford and take time with that equipment to learn and get better. To concentrate on their own racing and not how competitive they are with others. It's a hard pill to swallow but those that do tend to stick with the hobby longer then those who's expectations are set too high based on equipment.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:47 PM   #51
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...If you truly want to slow the classes down, mandate that the stock class at sanctioned races cannot use timing advance or boost...
Make it even simpler. Have a "spec" speed control that can't be programmed for anything except trigger neutral, throttle and brake. That's it. How much would one of them cost? And also a brushless motor with locked timing.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:48 PM   #52
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i started this discussion last year before snowbirds..and let me tell you about the backlash..i had people wanting to kick my ass at that race..although it never materialized...there has to be a separation of talent..if you look at any of the big races be it on carpet or asphalt or dirt...it is always the same people who end up on top...i truly give scotty ernst a prop for starting a amateur class at iic...it works very well...why if you can win or be in the top 3 at any event you go to would you not want to movve up and try to be faster...i grew up racing with ryan maifield...and believe me, if he was still racing stock he wouldnt be anywhere near as fast as he is today...ernie..props to you for supporting this rule, and also to roar for trying to make it happen....as for the sanbaggers..you know who you are...will just leave it at that...
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:59 PM   #53
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i started this discussion last year before snowbirds..and let me tell you about the backlash..i had people wanting to kick my ass at that race..although it never materialized...there has to be a separation of talent..if you look at any of the big races be it on carpet or asphalt or dirt...it is always the same people who end up on top...i truly give scotty ernst a prop for starting a amateur class at iic...it works very well...why if you can win or be in the top 3 at any event you go to would you not want to movve up and try to be faster...i grew up racing with ryan maifield...and believe me, if he was still racing stock he wouldnt be anywhere near as fast as he is today...ernie..props to you for supporting this rule, and also to roar for trying to make it happen....as for the sanbaggers..you know who you are...will just leave it at that...
I agree. While I am not currently sponsored except for a slight discount from a couple people, I would run pro anyway. Not to brag but I have been around long enough to be better than the average joe and I want to see if I can beat the top dogs. Sure I could pass myself off as Am and have a better chance of winning but so what? I want the challenge of being the best. Trophies mean nothing to me.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:00 PM   #54
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:02 PM   #55
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ROAR and Clubs should just bite the Bullet earley and Switch Sportsman to 21.5 NOW before the Year gets too far started and let NEW racers feel more relaxed trying to learn how to drive there car .
That would give all the VTA racers a place to sell the 21.5 motors that they can no longer use. Its funny to see this become more about speed. It seems that the problems the USVTA has been dealing with you also have to deal with in the other classes.

Back to the point of this thread or at least the point of Provetti's open letter. That point being that if you are good enough to be; sponsored / Pro / Semipro or otherwise compensated by the RC industry; then you should not be running in any class that is considered entry level. Whether it is Sportsman or Novice or a non pro stock class. Those levels should be filled only with people who are still developing their more basic skills like staying out of the wall and building a consistent line.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:03 PM   #56
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i started this discussion last year before snowbirds..
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i had people wanting to kick my ass at that race..
They still want to
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by i am cornholio View Post
i started this discussion last year before snowbirds..and let me tell you about the backlash..i had people wanting to kick my ass at that race..although it never materialized...there has to be a separation of talent..if you look at any of the big races be it on carpet or asphalt or dirt...it is always the same people who end up on top...i truly give scotty ernst a prop for starting a amateur class at iic...it works very well...why if you can win or be in the top 3 at any event you go to would you not want to movve up and try to be faster...i grew up racing with ryan maifield...and believe me, if he was still racing stock he wouldnt be anywhere near as fast as he is today...ernie..props to you for supporting this rule, and also to roar for trying to make it happen....as for the sanbaggers..you know who you are...will just leave it at that...
+1 ray... glad you POSTED ON THE SAME TOPIC of the discussion of what started this thread. Reading through these posts, some are making it a SPEED/ MOTOR/ and ESC issue...thats another TOPIC.


Basically, if you are sponsored, from what i am reading, you will not be running 17.5 stock class.
Moving drivers into a different class due to their long time experience isnt helping that driver also.. EX: just because they do well at "CLUB RACES" does not always mean they win national events.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:30 PM   #58
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Stock racing has never worked "right". Maybe it's time to do away with it all together. In modified there's no battery war, no "he's got cheater motors" conversaion. There's more power available than can be used (same with nitro).

The traction should be the limiter. Mod class, no traction compounds whatsoever. Everyone would be racing 17.5 and the timing adjust feature would be used for tractability, not more power. The cars would look lots more realistic on the track too.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:33 PM   #59
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While it is appreciable that EPIC is doing this, what is the end net result? If all the manufactures don't see the problem of sponsored sportsman racers, EPIC on its own is not going to fix it.

What should have happened is ROAR needed to find a way to create dialog with the membership about this restructuring before it pulled the trigger, and it should have had all the major manufactures on board before the rule change was announced. I looked at my Regions page on the ROAR website (Region 12) and the last update was October 2008, not a single piece of news for all of 2009 (RCGT, new tracks, anything)? Perhaps a note from Mr. Taylor about how this is going to impact our region would have been nice, does he even know about this rule?

What did our region director do to make ROAR a larger presence at weekend racing events than it was in 2008, from the looks of it nothing. Couple that with EXCOM posting rules decisions after the fact, only gives the taste that ROAR does not care what the membership thinks, regardless of truth or not. Perception is a powerful thing.

A board such as this on their site where purposed rules could be discussed by members and affiliated tracks before they are made official, I believe would help reduce the negative backlash that is created. It is a fact the not everyone is going to like all the rules, it makes it even harder to follow rules when you have no say in how they were made.

Racers as a whole are more purposed now than the hobbyist of yesteryear and ROAR may do itself some good to recognize that as the results show it in non ROAR races.

As it stands not every time a thread on this topic comes up the same discussion happens, no one understands why ROAR is doing this and how does it fit into the overall plan for the future.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:42 PM   #60
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I totally agree also with Jim and Paul.. Today 17.5 is NO place for a True Sportsman to enter and learn in this hobby with todays speeds. ROAR and Clubs should just bite the Bullet earley and Switch Sportsman to 21.5 NOW before the Year gets too far started and let NEW racers feel more relaxed trying to learn how to drive there car .
The idea is sound and maybe the answer is the 25.5t that is out right now for VTA, with the new speed controllers that are out it would make it close to your idea. Unfortunately the problem with this is ROAR is not trying to slow stock down. If they were they could have done that without this rule. They are trying to create a separate class for a group of people who can race together at National level events and not compete with the more experienced drivers.
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