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Old 03-17-2010, 10:05 AM   #271
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This may sound unusual but I think that if something is going to have a chance it will have to come from someone who actually isnt within the RC industry. Im sure that someone who isnt beholden to a manufacturer could come up with an idea and be able to make it work and not have it become as corrupted as many classes have that come before.

Not going to change as long as stock is the only
class Sedan racers run ...


just fewer & fewer attending until well ?

Its all over ....
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:10 PM   #272
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Not going to change as long as stock is the only
class Sedan racers run ...


just fewer & fewer attending until well ?

Its all over ....
Well I think that ROAR has the right idea but again that is a step and not the total solution. there is a place for factory riders in some classes (as it gives them a chance to show off their product in teh hands of top notch world class racers) but Im sure if some incentive was given for racers to move up to teh highers classes (like modified) then Im sure this quagmire as you seem to describe it can be fixed
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:45 PM   #273
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I've been in this hobby for years but have never raced. I learned about RCGT 2 months ago and thought, realistic scale bodies, motors limited to 17.5, HPI X pattern tyres. I picked up a TC car and started prepping for this class.

A month later I learned its already spiraled out of control due to the new ESC's with adjustable timing. On top of that there are a bunch of sponsored drivers in the class as well. So before starting out, I'm already discouraged because now I have to go to buy a Tekin RS/RS Pro because my GTB with 17.5 is not good enough.
This same situation is being dealt with all over and it's the racers/track operators -- not the manufacturers -- who are messing with it. USVTA is a good example of a true spec class that is fun for experienced racers and attractive to new blood. But then some of the sponsored local hot shoes (who win every week anyway) got RSPros and laptops and now put 5 laps on the field rather than the usual 2 laps. The local organizer pushed the reset button and nixed the turbos and the racing is a lot closer for everyone.

Like Raman, I took up RCGT because of the scale appearance and spec rules package. Well, now RCGT is just 17.5 touring with different tires and bodies. And if you spend a few hundred bucks, it's as fast as 13.5 touring. I've got too much in the car now (without a turbo) to quit, so I'll forget about competing and just set out some personal milestones.

Years ago, I got into RC with a Legends car. We raced every Wednesday night and had a blast venting our frustrations with those evil-handling little machines. One guy started bringing Depends because we pissed ourselves laughing most weeks.

A LOT of newbies began to join in the fun, so we went to two classes -- Sportsman and Expert. Same rules except once you won a Sportsman race, you got kicked up to Expert. I don't see why the same can't be done today. I think some tracks are splitting RCGT into two classes, with non-adjustable/adjustable ESCs being the dividing factor.

So my bottom line is fun. I dig the scale appearance of VTA and RCGT (and I'm getting a chubby for an F1 car). And I think there are too many classes that force racers to chase technology. My 3 cents.
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:03 PM   #274
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1. In RCGT case, HPI X-pattern tires are all you can use. RCGT allows, any 4wd chassis, any 17.5 motor, any body so long as its realistic, any wheels so long as they're realistic.. so does the X pattern make it spec?

2. If like you said, including Tamiya, Much More, Traxxas, Rp....then it won't be SPEC. I maybe wrong but the idea of Spec is to create a stock class like in the real world of racing. In Nascar you have different manufacturers with limits on engine, weight etc.. but they can choose their own oil, their choice of tyre, fuel etc..

3. For those who can afford $50 per set of tires, he will tested all of them and find the BEST TIRES amount the rule and take advantage of it. $50 tyres come in rims that are dish. RCGT requires realistic rims, so they're technically banned. Tamiya, HPI, Traxxas all make loose tyres and they all perform about the same.

4. HPI does not PAY these club for running their rule. True but the race organiser, club, track may approach HPI and ask for perks for promoting a tyre that otherwise has not sold well in 5 years. Or the organisers benefit by selling these tyres to people at the track. In the end, HPI benefits right?

5. The advantage of ESC with adjustable timing is mostly seen on the back straight, not infield. So with X-patterns he will still have an edge over the 17.5 non adjustable.. right?
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:08 PM   #275
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Ramen - what's your point? You're just restating what everyone knows already.
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Old 03-17-2010, 06:45 PM   #276
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Ernie's got a great point. Let there be begginner/novice class racing to help low-budget non-sponsored racers have a chance to learn to win without having to go up against top notch hard core racers. NEW BLOOD is what any hobby needs to grow--and a "minor leagues" will always help the growth of any hobby. And--if someone never aspires to race the top class's--and doesn't win major events--it gives him a better level of racing to play in. Lot's of racing has their "minor" leagues--why not RC?
T
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:04 PM   #277
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Ive been in Raman's position (for a number of years now) myself...Im gonna mull this over tonight and see if I can come up with something that could lay a good groundwork and possibly bring in new faces and gets guys like me and Raman off the sidelines.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:09 PM   #278
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Ernie's got a great point. Let there be begginner/novice class racing to help low-budget non-sponsored racers have a chance to learn to win without having to go up against top notch hard core racers. NEW BLOOD is what any hobby needs to grow--and a "minor leagues" will always help the growth of any hobby. And--if someone never aspires to race the top class's--and doesn't win major events--it gives him a better level of racing to play in. Lot's of racing has their "minor" leagues--why not RC?
T
Kinda bad when many of these "new blood" are looking for instant gratification, and when they know they can't win with their RTRs, they just quit. I've seen too many where they just won't work on their cars too. They think it is too much work to do. The whole mentality of young people in general are changing these days I think.
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:39 PM   #279
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Ramen - what's your point? You're just restating what everyone knows already.
My point was made in my first post. Threads like this keep popping up. New classes keep popping up. At the end of the day they all end up the same.

This thread is a great idea on paper, will it ever makes it to fruition? I doubt it... Someones personal interest will be served and another thread / class will be started.

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Old 03-18-2010, 05:17 AM   #280
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Sponsored racers have been in the slower classes in past years because they were able to.

Now that has changed, so has the racing...

Let 'em roll...
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:04 AM   #281
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The racing may have changed, but there still needs to be some way to have the newer guys have something to themselves where they can race and get experience with people of somewhat equal ability level. There ought to be a rookie class where only racers with <1 full year of racing experience are classified, and can run their RTRs, zero sponsorship and strictly limited upgrading...kinda like with Legends only opening up the chassis options. After a racer has raced as a rookie for one full year or three feature victories within that one year ("battlefield promotion" I think they call it on the Nationwide Tour in golf) and weekly or bimonthly workshops led by the shop and some of the highly seasoned racers at the track so they can learn things about their cars and can develop car tuning skills for the the next step. That next step up would be Sportsman. >1 year of racing (or automatic promotion for three feature wins) but not < 3 years and limited sponsorship. By this point, after cutting their teeth racing with other rookies and learning about their cars, racers will probably have stepped up to a car with more tuning options but they arent quite ready to rumble with the big guns. Five or more wins as a sportsman (or up to two more years racing experience) and then its Expert. These guys are pretty locked in when it comes to racing. They have been in for three years, could probably build their own car and have pretty significant tuning knowledge, their pretty competitive on a weekly basis and maybe can run a big event or two and finish pretty well. They have some legit sponsors as well and can start helping the newer racers that are running rookie and maybe even some of the sportsman racers. After a year of expert, four years in total, (at least in theory) these guys can go out and run national races as spokespeople for the hobby and for their local track and rumble with the likes of Blackstock, Cavalieri, Drake, Cuffs et al as a Pro. The major issue/question that Im sure will come up with an idea like this is how can you enforce it and keep a racer from staying in rookie or sportsman? This is where a little knowledge of Microsoft Excel or Access would come in handy. Im still working out what the spreadsheet or database would entail and how to get that info collected but I at least wanted to give my idea for something that hopefully can be worked into something at least on the sedan level.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:53 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Raman View Post
1. In RCGT case, HPI X-pattern tires are all you can use..........
2. ..........

3. ......... Tamiya, HPI, Traxxas all make loose tyres and they all perform about the same.........

4. HPI does not PAY these club for running their rule. ........
The HPI X-pattern tires are chosen not to the benefit of HPI but to the benefit of the racers. Back in the day, the X-pattern was the only choice solely because of its performance. It is the best performing treaded "realistic" tire out there. To the benefit of the racers, HPI is well distributed so racers do not have to struggle to buy from limited sources and outlets. That problem is typical with Tamiya.

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5. The advantage of ESC with adjustable timing is mostly seen on the back straight, not infield. So with X-patterns he will still have an edge over the 17.5 non adjustable.. right?
I've suggested this before. Why not just have a track that doesn't have any straights? Then no-one will have that "full throttle" advantage and it will all hinge on the person's ability to set-up and drive. However, people in general don't like that because its too difficult and not fun.

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Kinda bad when many of these "new blood" are looking for instant gratification, and when they know they can't win with their RTRs, they just quit. I've seen too many where they just won't work on their cars too. They think it is too much work to do. The whole mentality of young people in general are changing these days I think.
You're talking about people who bought RTRs. Hence they were too lazy to build the kit in the first place. So why would you expect that they would be even interested in turning a wrench?
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:03 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by timmig View Post
Ernie's got a great point. Let there be begginner/novice class racing to help low-budget non-sponsored racers have a chance to learn to win without having to go up against top notch hard core racers. NEW BLOOD is what any hobby needs to grow--and a "minor leagues" will always help the growth of any hobby. And--if someone never aspires to race the top class's--and doesn't win major events--it gives him a better level of racing to play in. Lot's of racing has their "minor" leagues--why not RC?
T
There's a real simple solution to bringing new blood.
  1. No Lipos! Sub C's only!
  2. Brushed motor ESCs only!
  3. Handout motors to all entrants who must relinquish them at the end of race day with entrants getting a different motor each time they race.
  4. The person who TQs and wins the same night gets bumped into the next class
  5. Tub chassis only or no chassis newer than 2005.
  6. Of course, no drivers who are sponsored whole or in part.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:20 PM   #284
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There's a real simple solution to bringing new blood.
  1. No Lipos! Sub C's only!
  2. Brushed motor ESCs only!
  3. Handout motors to all entrants who must relinquish them at the end of race day with entrants getting a different motor each time they race.
  4. The person who TQs and wins the same night gets bumped into the next class
  5. Tub chassis only or no chassis newer than 2005.
  6. Of course, no drivers who are sponsored whole or in part.
You're kidding right?? Or you don't race.

Lipos and Brushless motors are FAR less expensive to run with over time!! Brushed motors require comm truers--magnet rezapping and replacing brush's.

Nicads require SEVERAL sets because you can't recharge them on the same day. Requires a huge investment to practice--then race!!
For just two cars--you'd need 10 sets of batteries!!! One to practice with--3 qualfiers and a main. And don't even think if something goes wrong and you have to run another time--where does that set come from?

Lipos can be recharged several times. I've get exactly two per car--sometimes only ONE!! And they get charged multiple times during a race day. Run them in practice--recharge--run in qualifiers--recharge--run the main!!

Hand out motors could work again--- and in fact-- is done in some forms of racing. You could also use brushless motors for hand-outs. And use simple ESC's without computer advanced timing etc.

It doesn't take a HUGE change---just keep entry level racing available for the non-sponsored guys. If you want to move UP into an open class--that is easy!! Anyone can run in the open/modified class's as long as they can drive and don't create a hazard.

It's the NEW and NOVICE racer that needs to have a better entry level playing field-- and the guy that truly races for FUN and not winning every time out. Budget racing can and does work on many levels. Just ask the SCCA or VARA real car racers. They have a lot of fun--without having to race Nascar or Formula one!

If you don't like it---don't try it!!

FWIW
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:44 PM   #285
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You're kidding right?? Or you don't race.

It's the NEW and NOVICE racer that needs to have a better entry level playing field-- and the guy that truly races for FUN and not winning every time out. Budget racing can and does work on many levels. Just ask the SCCA or VARA real car racers. They have a lot of fun--without having to race Nascar or Formula one!

If you don't like it---don't try it!!

FWIW
Tim
That's the crux of it, isn't it? Karting and 1:1 have a similar situation. If you want to start a career or want the latest and greatest,TAG karts or FC2000 are great classes. If you want to have fun, run piston port or Club Ford. It's older equipment, plenty of used gear available, and the setups and tricks are well-established. And when you're in the seat, it feels just as fast as the other classes.

VTA is great because old chassis are just as competitive as the new ones since the power is low. The scale look is cool and the price of entry is low. I came from off-road, so I had a radio and some servos. A Havoc system, used TC3, body, and tires set me back about $250. I probably spend about $500 in the last year on parts, tools, charger, lipos and some other crap, but that's $500 that wouldn't have come into the hobby if I didn't have an easy entry point.

I just got a new TC5R for RCGT and will pay entry fees and buy more crap this year. I have no idea what my lifetime RC spend might add up to be.

Without new blood, an activity dies -- plain and simple.
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