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Old 01-25-2010, 02:45 PM   #241
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JR007,

I totally agree with your concpet of minimizing the battery capacity. In fact over the past couple of years I've tried to come up with a formula of rules for an endurance race class. It would only allow brushed motors with Mabuchi 540 armatures in them, and NiCd/NiMh batteries. Now I know alot of you are scoffing already but hear me out.

Any brushed motor can, endbell, brushes and springs are allowed. THe only stipulation is to use a hand out armeture pulled from a silver can motor. I chose this armature because, you guessed it, it's slower. Also, I know most current racers have a ton of old brushed motors sitting around. What better way to recycle them. To minimize the current draw a driver very well may want an older can and magnets so as to get a longer run time. Now I've also developed a formula that stipulates the number of cells allowed based on the the mAh of the battery. For example, 1900mah and lower can use 6 cells, 2000mah - 2900mah can only use 5 cells, and so on. I'm essentially trying to create parity by as closely as possible evening the wattage levels of the different battery groups. Now, this is endurance racing, so the races will be a half hour to two hours long so you're going to have to manage your fuel consumption(ie. current capacity). Battery changes will be nessesary during the race, and what battery, motor, rollout combination you use impacts your run time.


This idea really wasn't specially tailored to noob racers, but I think managing the battery capacities is another good way to slow the cars down and create parity.

Just more if my crazy thoughts.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:54 PM   #242
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The other problem (besides safety) with smaller mah lipo batteries is balance. It's tough to balance some cars with a 5000mah battery. Imagine trying to do it with a 2000mah battery.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:59 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
...
Is it "really" a war if you have 2 times more capacity than you can use? and you can buy a pack and leave in in your car for $60 bux?

Never been a better time to be a noob racer. You don't need to work on your motors, you'll have all the power you need... Don't need to match batterys all week, one pack will probably do you... We got rid of most foam touring classes, so those rubber tires save time and setup headaches (although I enjoyed foam touring). We make it much easier the rest of us are gonna quit. A hobby is supposed to fill your time and be a challenge. Most hobby like thing I get out of it anymore is mounting a body....

Be careful what we all ask for. Just like Brushless and LiPo, it changes other things long term for what was a short term idea.

and other "hobbys" want our noobs. Keep the noobs happy and having fun. just that simple.
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:12 PM   #244
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For Rick, pick any factory driver in 1/12th for Associated right now, running 1S. How much battery they have left after 8 minutes? say 17.5 or 13.5 car.

Is it "really" a war if you have 2 times more capacity than you can use? and you can buy a pack and leave in in your car for $60 bux?

Never been a better time to be a noob racer. You don't need to work on your motors, you'll have all the power you need... Don't need to match batterys all week, one pack will probably do you... We got rid of most foam touring classes, so those rubber tires save time and setup headaches (although I enjoyed foam touring). We make it much easier the rest of us are gonna quit. A hobby is supposed to fill your time and be a challenge. Most hobby like thing I get out of it anymore is mounting a body....

Be careful what we all ask for. Just like Brushless and LiPo, it changes other things long term for what was a short term idea.

and other "hobbys" want our noobs. Keep the noobs happy and having fun. just that simple.
I don't know how much time they have but I know it is not an issue. I consistentely had 500 - 600 mAh left in modified at the IIC.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:24 PM   #245
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Why don't we just have sedan and 1/12 at all the races this year. Any motor. Any pinion. If it works out, fine. If it does not, maybe we should consider that things are too fast.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:24 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I don't know how much time they have but I know it is not an issue. I consistentely had 500 - 600 mAh left in modified at the IIC.
Yea but you had some "cheater" pack we can't get.

Sadly, what people don't realize is I'd bet you grabbed a pack, and that was that. No hardcore searching, begging, pleading, or late night deals with devil. Grabbed a pack, probably a return from a noob that couldn't get it to charge, and you ran it just fine.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:31 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
Why don't we just have sedan and 1/12 at all the races this year. Any motor. Any pinion. If it works out, fine. If it does not, maybe we should consider that things are too fast.
It's not that things are fast, it's that races are to short based on the advancement of technology. What people forget about when "remember how it used to be", was that we were slower "so to speak" because we were able to use up what we had and had to plan accordingly with gearing, etc. Now, if you want to, you can over gear your car by nearly double and bog it around the track at 300 plus degress until your time is up or you melt the leads off the motor. And you still have battery left. That's not pitiful, but it's a shame.

Want to help noobs? Give them what they need, track time. Want to make races more attractive to the old dudes looking for value? GIVE THEM TRACK TIME. I can go to Cleveland and get 12 packs (max) at best for say 96-100 minutes of track time... OR, I could be involved in some 20 minute 1/12th heats (easily do-able) and get nearly 4 hours of track time per event...

Longer races would make our racing a better value and make us better racers. Sadly it also helps the other racers in addition to yourself, but good racing is good racing. All any of us wants is a good race.

Racing formats have not caught up with technology. 1980, 8 minute 12th scale on 1200's at 7.2volts. 2010, 8 minute 12th scale at 3.7 volts with nearly 6 times the battery capacity with a lighter car. still, only 8 minutes.............................. Should be 15minutes at the very least for 17.5 and etc.

Noobs need track time, Old dudes want track time.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:45 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
It's not that things are fast, it's that races are to short based on the advancement of technology. What people forget about when "remember how it used to be", was that we were slower "so to speak" because we were able to use up what we had and had to plan accordingly with gearing, etc.
This has been my opinion for a long time. This is why nitro is so popular is that there is strategy involved. Back in the days you had to gear/drive smart enough to make runtime. Run too fast up front and dump at the end...

Electric racing needs to get the "strategy" back to it. If this doesn't come to a head electric will never be as strong as it COULD be or ever was...
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Old 01-25-2010, 05:56 PM   #249
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I think bob is insinuating that he is

and old noob.

I would like to see heat races bumped up in length, as well as mains.

We race mini coopers 15minute mains a few times a year for a "Cup" trophy at the end... It is a whole lot different for 15min than 6 for a TC or even 8 for VTA.
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Old 01-25-2010, 06:11 PM   #250
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I think bob is insinuating that he is

and old noob.

I would like to see heat races bumped up in length, as well as mains.

We race mini coopers 15minute mains a few times a year for a "Cup" trophy at the end... It is a whole lot different for 15min than 6 for a TC or even 8 for VTA.
I think some people are not thinking things through all the way.
If the idea is to make changes to attract new people into the hobby and people are suggesting longer heats and mains I'd like to know where is the attraction when you have 10 heat races on a week night with racing not getting over until after midnight when people have to drive home and be at work in the morning? Longer races = longer night.
Sometimes I wish the races were shorter so Im not as tired at work following a race night.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:24 PM   #251
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^^ That's a track/club problem, and won't affect everyone. The ROAR/IFMAR rules affect racers around the world, and globally I think there is probably more weekend racing than week-night racing.
I'm all for longer races. We just made our off-road racing 6 minutes this year instead of 5, and it's great. You can really get into it, and if there is a pile-up at turn 1 off the blocks, there is a chance to recover.
I'd like to see 6 or 7 minute races across the board for 1/10 racing as a minimum.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:53 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by RC Racer OG View Post
I think some people are not thinking things through all the way.
If the idea is to make changes to attract new people into the hobby and people are suggesting longer heats and mains I'd like to know where is the attraction when you have 10 heat races on a week night with racing not getting over until after midnight when people have to drive home and be at work in the morning? Longer races = longer night.
Sometimes I wish the races were shorter so Im not as tired at work following a race night.
I don't wish races were shorter, but a way to run a class and get out. That way those of us that can't spend an entire weekend day could still race. For those that want to run multiple classes, the day isn't any longer.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:44 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
It's not that things are fast, it's that races are to short based on the advancement of technology. What people forget about when "remember how it used to be", was that we were slower "so to speak" because we were able to use up what we had and had to plan accordingly with gearing, etc. Now, if you want to, you can over gear your car by nearly double and bog it around the track at 300 plus degress until your time is up or you melt the leads off the motor. And you still have battery left. That's not pitiful, but it's a shame.

Want to help noobs? Give them what they need, track time. Want to make races more attractive to the old dudes looking for value? GIVE THEM TRACK TIME. I can go to Cleveland and get 12 packs (max) at best for say 96-100 minutes of track time... OR, I could be involved in some 20 minute 1/12th heats (easily do-able) and get nearly 4 hours of track time per event...

Longer races would make our racing a better value and make us better racers. Sadly it also helps the other racers in addition to yourself, but good racing is good racing. All any of us wants is a good race.

Racing formats have not caught up with technology. 1980, 8 minute 12th scale on 1200's at 7.2volts. 2010, 8 minute 12th scale at 3.7 volts with nearly 6 times the battery capacity with a lighter car. still, only 8 minutes.............................. Should be 15minutes at the very least for 17.5 and etc.

Noobs need track time, Old dudes want track time.


Bob,

You have an open invitation to join us here in Hawaii! We have recently changed our format. Here is what we do.

For qualifying we have an "open" qualifying session, usually 15min. We take the average of your 5 fastest laps and let that set the qualifying order. Theres time to make changes to the car if you choose to or you can just join in at anytime during the session.

We run 3 mains for each class at 8 minutes. This brings some strategy back into the game as you can overheat your tires, so you need to manage your throttle finger. We also use the results from all the mains for point totals at the end of the series, this also brings strategy back as it will make that "risky" pass even more so as you could crash and lose points.

All and all we have found it to be very competitive and it brings strategy and good driving back into the game.

Bob
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:32 PM   #254
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The new "open" qualifying format we're using in Hawaii as BobC mentioned is lots of fun...it is much like F1 qualifying in that you go out when you feel like it. Last race we broke it in 2 heats but the race b4 we put everyone in one class in 1 heat and made sure the qual was long enough that we didn't have all the cars on the track at once. Both formats were fun but I think I prefer the latter. The nice thing about the long qualifier format is that we actually get more track time in qualifying now but in the same amount of total time per round. Additionally you only need a minimal amount of turn marshalls if any because it isn't so critical to get your car righted and back on the track. It also has the added benefit of making drivers realize it is a qualifier and you are racing the clock not the other drivers. So we have less problems with traffic racing the faster guys and they let them by more readily.

Speaking of longer races...I ran a scale F1 race for well over 10 years that was a long format deliberately so that we would force people to make a pit stop and change batteries. As batteries got better and better we had to keep extending the race until we reached a point where the main was 45mins and most agreed it was too long. But when we shortened the race to 30mins the batteries could make the full time without a battery change (black can Tamiya motor). I'd love to see races get longer myself and make the race more challenging like the old 1/12th days...but what do we do as batteries get better and better and eventually isn't a problem to make run time again. Also what do we do to keep the battery wars under control so guys aren't having to buy a new battery every time one comes out just to get a run time advantage as they did in the old days? I'm all for the longer races but these are things that need to be figured out.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:39 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
Never been a better time to be a noob racer. You don't need to work on your motors, you'll have all the power you need... Don't need to match batterys all week, one pack will probably do you... We got rid of most foam touring classes, so those rubber tires save time and setup headaches (although I enjoyed foam touring). We make it much easier the rest of us are gonna quit. A hobby is supposed to fill your time and be a challenge. Most hobby like thing I get out of it anymore is mounting a body....
I'm rather liking it myself...this gives me more time to work on setup and get that right and still have a personal life outside of RC I've always been slow on setup and this makes it a lot easier on me to be able to do setup, race, and be a race director.
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