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Old 01-22-2010, 07:54 PM   #211
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I'm not so sure speed is an issue to a newbie...to me it is more of an issue to those who have been around awhile and broken their fair share of parts. Watch anyone at a hobby shop buying their first RC car and what is the first thing they want to do with it? Get the most insanely fast motor they can and strap it in their car.
When I first saw competitive RC car racing was at the 2004 ROAR paved onroad nats, the stock and mod TC speeds and cornering ability were mind blowing to me, I was instantly hooked. Had it been say.. all VTA's racing that day, I prolly wouldnt have even walked in the hobby shop

I recently Got my long time best friend to come out the the track(who had never seen rc car racing) and check out what I've been doing on the weekends for the last 5 years,So he saw the 13.5 TC's,WGT and VTA cars run...he was hooked,but found the 13.5 TC class the most appealing. He bought an original xray t2 that had been raced hard since it was new,next day he comes over and we begin working on it (I furnished the electronics just to get him on track asap) we broke it down and I explained all the adjustments and what they did to him. Once the car was done I told him to setup 2 objects (soda cans, weights etc) in a open parking lot and run figure 8's to develop some control.

within 2 weeks from the time he started racing he was making clean runs and cutting lines (he was within 1.5 laps of my runs and I've won the Paved nats in stock TC)so his progress was legit. he'll prolly be on pace with me this summer...(speed isnt the issue for most newbies in my opinion,understanding the radio adjustments/car prep/handling problems and knowing how to fix it are) racing isnt fun when your new to it and your cars pushing wildly,loose or tweaked, most the time its the "speed freak elitists" who will take the time to help new racers get there stuff right, atleast from what I have seen and experienced...when i started it wasn't the C main guys who helped me, it was the fastest guys at the track, and I try to do the same for new people that was done for me. It's rewarding to help someone and watch them get faster and faster while having fun.

So what Im saying is not all "newbies" want to run something slower,some see the "fast" guys and say in their heads "I can run with those guys" and are willing to practice and work until they do just that,because thats where the FUN is for them. Its where the fun is for me I know.

(this is my longest post ever) blabbering...
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:59 PM   #212
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With all due respect Mr Stormer, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The we in "then we can use" is the group of competition racing speed freak elites that I'm referring to above. You, and the other very experianced RCers may be capable of handling cars with this much potential, but usually a new comer cannot. If you're the owner of a track and hobby shop I'm sure you can attest to witnessing the newbie that spends a grand on nice racining equipment and not then being able to control the car on the track.
Took me a while to put a finger on this one. We all overlooked it. We don't get "out of the blue" noobs at on-road events. The cars are very specific and we are usually very hidden. A random noob is NEVER going to find himself looking at the cars in any shop and see a db12rr lipo car and set it up to beat down the street 4mm off the ground. EVER. AND, the first thing that's gonna happen is the guy behind the counter is going to ask what he's interested in, and where he plans to run. Utterly nips that in the bud. If Joe Noob is buying a used racer off of a racing buddy and making an effort to get to the track, his buddy should already have told him everything he needs to know, and how challenging it is going to be. He's got that guidance and direction.

And to the point... A car that's to fast simply needs a $5 pinion change. Not a new motor, not a new speedo, or a spec battery. and the reason I pointed out that it's important that we know for 99% of us, have all the speed we can ever stand. That means, Joe Noob, technically, doesn't have the wrong equipment. He can literally, and without months of dyno work or even any fabulous tools GO WAY TO FAST. That used to be a gripe as well. "...I'm not fast enough...". Guess what, you are now. So go over the marshal, pick up what's left of your car and put a pinion gear on that thing that's 10 teeth smaller, like I told you last time we were at the track...

We do, on occasion, get out "of the blue" noobs at the offroad track with stuff like Savages, etc. But usually because the jumps are better than the gravel pile at home. If the track people are sharp, you'll keep that guy and he'll be back. Might find himself with a truggy... IF HE HAS FUN.

and whoever started telling noobs they should expect to win all the time.. Knock it off. Unrealistic expectations don't help.

New comers can't handle the speed. I agree, (see pinion change, above) I believe that as a whole, when we see new dudes struggle, most of us are pro-active about it. and it's usually pretty rewarding. I helped a struggling kid / parent combo with a touring car one time... Took me 4-5 hours to help this pair fix all the silli-ness. Car was a disaster, instantly flip when turning left, go straight when turning right and loose the whole time with crap falling off or missing. I showed them what was wrong and what to look for, how to fix it, etc. i even missed a qualifier while it was going on. Kid went out and sucked a LOT less and actually looked pretty good, I drove the car it was decent. His dad took me aside later and thanked me with a tear in his eye. He felt bad it wasn't turning out to be the father son bonding he had hoped, and as they were both new, he felt helpless. I think of that story a lot. after his main the kid had a huge smile on his face, and dad gave me a wink. Kind still makes me a bit teary eyed. It was a nice moment.

I think if you look around a bit, you'll see I have tons of posts based on classes, error correction and related. I am 100% for slower cars. NOT because it's easier for the noobs, but because I feel it makes the racing tighter, and better. Instead of being off the pace 8-10 laps, he's off the pace 3-4 laps. Either way he has no chance of winning ans shouldn't expect to, if ever. But the illusion of being better is created, and the car is more drivable. It's also more drivable for the skilled as well.

on the rest of your post, rather than debate it, (see pinion gear).
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:49 PM   #213
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Mr. Stormer,

While I still beleive going slower with a older ESC and a silver can motor is the more cost effective way to go, we definately seem to see eye to eye on this:

Slower cars make for tighter, better racing. Particularly for guys like me who don't have the skill to pilot the extremely fast TC and 1/12 cars.

It was really nice to hear your story about helping a struggling new comer. I know alot of experienced racers do do that, but I've seen first hand guys scoff at people with older equipment, or cars that weren't top of the line.

In the end, I hope I can save up the cash for an AMB lab counting system, get the pavement layed out nice and smooth, and have some fun racing close races with friends.

Like you say, having fun IS the most important aspect of the hobby. We just need to convince that to more newbies.

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Old 01-23-2010, 07:38 AM   #214
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Cost to much? here's the rub... to who? We sell more Emaxx's than 1/12th scale cars... and those guys aren't coming to the track OR griping about the speed or how much it costs to race.... and they spent more... You suppose their having more fun?
An e-maxx does not cost more than a 12 scale to run. I've ran both. They might cost more initially but the total cost of ownership of a 12th scale is much more than an e-maxx. Especially when you compare the actual time ran since an e-maxx doesn't require a track and a 12th scale does. In fact, 12th scale was the most expensive form of RC I have participated in of (racing 12th scale, racing Foam TC, racing Rubber TC, racing 4wd mod buggy, Bashing RC10s, Bashing e-maxxs)

But again, there is a difference between a basher and a racer. I would guess most examples in this thread of saving the hobby is really referring to save the racers. There will always be bashers and fortunately for us they will help bolster the hobby for racers.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:12 AM   #215
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This thread proves one thing.

Plenty of the elitist still around that just don't get.
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Old 01-23-2010, 09:54 AM   #216
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So Bob.......why don't you get the waterjet going....cut a simple chassis....add some simple parts....allow only a few styles of bodies....get after the motor/speedo manufacturer to build a simple (non boost/turbo) brushless combo....with like a 30 turn.....add inexpensive lipo's......come up with a spec wheel/tire combo that provides OK traction.....sell these as the Stormer Hurricanes.....and have a North American Series???? Each club can run these cars intermixed with their regular classes.....have a Woodstock of the RC world for the "Hurricane' World Championships....where the entire race weekend consists of music/food/fun.....with only bragging rights for any winner of any main!!!

I'll place my order right now....I'll take 3.....make it so Bob!!!


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Old 01-23-2010, 10:30 AM   #217
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This thread proves one thing.

Plenty of the elitist still around that just don't get.

The truth !!!


They want to slow it down ...

But they don't want to move to a more experience class...

They keep Cherry picking the beginners class's , so no one new joins the fun cus well ?

Beginners have no place in on-road....

No wonder all the doom & gloom ...


The so call experts denial the problem , making the problem even worst ...



It like a bad song on the radio.....

The same-O over & over ....
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:39 AM   #218
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Beginners have no place in on-road....
There is if your local club is running a carpet Slash class.
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Old 01-23-2010, 10:47 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by xrayroooahhhh View Post
So Bob.......why don't you get the waterjet going....cut a simple chassis....add some simple parts....allow only a few styles of bodies....get after the motor/speedo manufacturer to build a simple (non boost/turbo) brushless combo....with like a 30 turn.....add inexpensive lipo's......come up with a spec wheel/tire combo that provides OK traction.....sell these as the Stormer Hurricanes.....and have a North American Series???? Each club can run these cars intermixed with their regular classes.....have a Woodstock of the RC world for the "Hurricane' World Championships....where the entire race weekend consists of music/food/fun.....with only bragging rights for any winner of any main!!!

I'll place my order right now....I'll take 3.....make it so Bob!!!


Roy
Funny you post that on this thread.

Because Ernie tried doing this. Twice. Both failed miserably.

And Bob, easy on the encylopedia sized posts, okay?

Not that I disagree on any particular point. Expensive is a relative term. I race RC because I can't afford real cars. But how expensive a hobby is becomes relative to how much fun you're having. For an average racer $50 a week may be great fun. At $100 a week it's too expensive. Again these are relative numbers. That point where racing becomes too expensive is different for everyone.
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:10 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
The truth !!!


They want to slow it down ...

But they don't want to move to a more experience class...

They keep Cherry picking the beginners class's , so no one new joins the fun cus well ?

Beginners have no place in on-road....

No wonder all the doom & gloom ...


The so call experts denial the problem , making the problem even worst ...



It like a bad song on the radio.....

The same-O over & over ....
Funny that you post. I deleted my last line before posted
"Where are you WildCherry?"

You and I had a go at it on the Slash thread. You were all over the Slash because it's Traxxas and it's for bashers not 'real' racers.

On road needs something similar to SCT RTR rules. Cheap, slow and fun.
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:18 AM   #221
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I see a lot of people with opinions, complaints and ideas.
Now who is going to stand up and take action? Bitching on an internet thread isn't going to get anything done. If anything is going to change the first thing that needs to happen is somebody needs to take action and do something about it.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:26 PM   #222
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Not that I disagree on any particular point. Expensive is a relative term. I race RC because I can't afford real cars. But how expensive a hobby is becomes relative to how much fun you're having. For an average racer $50 a week may be great fun. At $100 a week it's too expensive. Again these are relative numbers. That point where racing becomes too expensive is different for everyone.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:36 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by xrayroooahhhh View Post
So Bob.......why don't you get the waterjet going....cut a simple chassis....add some simple parts....allow only a few styles of bodies....get after the motor/speedo manufacturer to build a simple (non boost/turbo) brushless combo....with like a 30 turn.....add inexpensive lipo's......come up with a spec wheel/tire combo that provides OK traction.....sell these as the Stormer Hurricanes.....and have a North American Series???? Each club can run these cars intermixed with their regular classes.....have a Woodstock of the RC world for the "Hurricane' World Championships....where the entire race weekend consists of music/food/fun.....with only bragging rights for any winner of any main!!!

I'll place my order right now....I'll take 3.....make it so Bob!!!


Roy
I know it was a rhetorical statement but I'm gonna post on it anyway.

I've done it several times in various capacities. I've done more silver can 1/12th scale testing than anybody else I'm aware of. and when my kids were young, I spent a lot of time with the motor guys making what I called "dad motors", which were very high efficiency low rpm motors, which we marketed. Then when brushes got better and cans better about 5 years ago, I revisited the idea and we developed a series of motors in the 25 - 32 turn range. They take some of the Smash out of the learning curve, making it easier on Dad. I was looking, we still have some of those in stock... not big sellers. But a Godsend for those that understood it. More power than a silver can with better efficiency for longer racing. (which is what noobs need, track time).

At one of my son's first offroad races (he was 8-10?), I set him up with a good high efficiency setup, ran for about 35 minutes... I remember this guy came up on the driver stand and asked if we were on channel 64, I said yea, he said "I'll wait", I replied with "Yea, and for a long time, he's got 1/2 hour left on this pack"...lol...

We raced those high efficiency motors (before there was brushless racing) and as recently as on 3800's and 4200's and we were running 15 minute qualifiers and 20 minute mains in 1/12th scale at standard 27t brushed speeds for 15 minutes and slightly slower for 20. I think one of the motors we had over 15 hours of track time... never cut the comm or replaced the brushes, still runs and dynos fine. and it PAINS me to travel to an event and get a few minutes of track time and take 1900mAh out of a 5200mah pack... WHY-O-WHY aren't we giving people what they really need, TRACK TIME! (we don't need to debate it here, I've been carrying that torch for years, there are other threads)

We've had our own cars (all done in Solidworks by myself), and I did a lot of testing on a car we were going to market for spec racing.

I am keenly aware of the new guys and how to slow cars down. More than most. And it's not something I farmed out for somebody to develop or test. I did every last part, built the cars tested, tried classes locally, etc.

And a massive series for low buck cars is a fail. Sounds great until you realize that you sold $50 cars to guys that couldn't swing a $100 car and now you want them to attend a massive event they need to fly to and take a week off of work for. This is why Ralph Burch took Ernies money at the Street Spec nationals the one time they tried... The guys that series appealed to... they couldn't afford to go. Quite a catch 22.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:43 PM   #224
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And Bob, easy on the encylopedia sized posts, okay?
I apologize for that. I type in the 90-120wpm range. It happens pretty quickly. I know that I don't have the most posts on RCtech... But I am 100% confident, CONFIDENT, nobody has typed more words total.

ever walk into an office and interrupt somebody that's typing and they look at you, answer your question while they are still typing, they don't stop, and they're answering your question while still typing without looking... I'm that guy. I do slow down when doing it though, I think I'm out of mental ram.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:08 PM   #225
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I apologize for that. I type in the 90-120wpm range. It happens pretty quickly. I know that I don't have the most posts on RCtech... But I am 100% confident, CONFIDENT, nobody has typed more words total.

ever walk into an office and interrupt somebody that's typing and they look at you, answer your question while they are still typing, they don't stop, and they're answering your question while still typing without looking... I'm that guy. I do slow down when doing it though, I think I'm out of mental ram.
Ok then. Write the History of RC racing book. I know I was a LOT younger when I started buying from Stormer.

At 120 wpm you should be able to do it in a few days.
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