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Old 01-21-2010, 05:27 PM   #196
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Do I have to move up to mod, because I'm sponsored??

Just kidding. Back to the "save the hobby" discussion.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:29 PM   #197
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Apparently, complaining is fun across all hobbies.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:34 PM   #198
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Apparently, complaining is fun across all hobbies.
Unfortunately it seems to be an ever growing fungus.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:04 PM   #199
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If you want to know why RC is as stagnant as it is look at discussions like this. I mean every time this comes up, we end up with 14 pages of people complaining about something. If people would actually work together, come up with some decent rules and work out ways to keep costs down, then guys like me would have an easier time coming to the track and running and seeing how much fun RC can be and then they can share it with their friends, and they share it with their friends, etc. instead of spending all their time playing Call of Duty or Forza or Mario Party. I think WGT could still be at least a mid level option for people if its handled properly as this is a very important juncture for that class and any others.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:57 PM   #200
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If you want to know why RC is as stagnant as it is look at discussions like this. I mean every time this comes up, we end up with 14 pages of people complaining about something. If people would actually work together, come up with some decent rules and work out ways to keep costs down, then guys like me would have an easier time coming to the track and running and seeing how much fun RC can be and then they can share it with their friends, and they share it with their friends, etc. instead of spending all their time playing Call of Duty or Forza or Mario Party. I think WGT could still be at least a mid level option for people if its handled properly as this is a very important juncture for that class and any others.
It's almost as though I read something like that a few pages back.

"...It's all lip service. Post up some rules, not some "ideas"..."

Folks, if you're already racing... it's not going to get any cheaper for you... EVER. You already own the cars and the infrastructure of a race team. Now it's your ego telling you that you're not winning because of what you have or don't have. You have what it takes to get to the track... So get to the track. Stop hanging out in the virtual middle of nowhere talking about racing when you COULD BE RACING.

If somebody gave all your equipment to a new racer, would it be enough to get him on the track? Probably be just fine (probably be enough equipment to get a boy scout troop to the track for most of us). So why is it hard to get to the track for some people? Sucks to get beat. Sucks to feel they're not competitive or have the wrong equipment. It's hard to get motivated to come back week after week and know, REALLY KNOW, it's just not possible for you to win, no matter what you spend or how hard you work. There are always going to be drivers with more talent. and there will always be somebody with more time to spend to wrench and to practice. And that can't be regulated by the rules or a spec class, or limited funds racing.

So the real underpinning, the honest, deep down inside yourself truth, is that it sucks to get beat. I'm no different. and I'm getting beat for different reasons than most. I have access to whatever I need. I don't have the time to tune it well, and frankly, I'm on the "back 9" of my racing career. I don't see as well, my reflexes are going, etc. But I still find time to complain about what I don't have. For me, it's time. Would it honestly help? Maybe. But I still gripe about it. and rather than go out to the shop and work on stuff for a race we have in 3 weeks, here I am. So it would appear, if I'm honest, that I know what I need to do, but I'm just not doing what it takes to be more competitive. Welcome to RC psych 101.

So if I know for a fact, that I cannot come within 2-4 laps of the national championship winning drivers I have to race with locally... how do I get myself motivated for that ass-whooping that happens every single time? (and it's been going on for 15 years with these guys) I look for the fun. Once you've got the skill of a new hobby relatively mastered, you can see where you are. Some people just like the challenge of the learning curve. Some, it's about the winning. If I'm really honest, I think the not winning really bums me out. Or the feeling of not having some "thing" that just came out that we didn't know was cool, so we didn't try it. Or the feeling that you brought a knife to a gun fight, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

I think people get tired of the fight, get excited by a new hobby. They participate HARD in the new hobby while it's exciting. They then get tired of the fight, blame what they don't have and move on.

Only way to keep people is keep it fun. And no amount of spending money can make something fun, especially if you're not winning while doing it. ONLY going to be one guy in 1st. The rest of us have to look for the fun and the challenges that motivate us as individuals.

No rules changes, no spec racing, no giving everybody free cars will help it. If your hobby isn't fun, why would you do it? It's supposed to fill your spare time. If it doesn't you find something else to do.

That tears it... I know why I haven't been as competitive lately...I'm gonna work on my stuff. (I think I just gave myself a pep talk... feel free to yell out virtual words of encouragement as I go to work on my stuff ). lulz...
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:35 PM   #201
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It's almost as though I read something like that a few pages back.

"...It's all lip service. Post up some rules, not some "ideas"..."

Folks, if you're already racing... it's not going to get any cheaper for you... EVER. You already own the cars and the infrastructure of a race team. Now it's your ego telling you that you're not winning because of what you have or don't have. You have what it takes to get to the track... So get to the track. Stop hanging out in the virtual middle of nowhere talking about racing when you COULD BE RACING.

If somebody gave all your equipment to a new racer, would it be enough to get him on the track? Probably be just fine (probably be enough equipment to get a boy scout troop to the track for most of us). So why is it hard to get to the track for some people? Sucks to get beat. Sucks to feel they're not competitive or have the wrong equipment. It's hard to get motivated to come back week after week and know, REALLY KNOW, it's just not possible for you to win, no matter what you spend or how hard you work. There are always going to be drivers with more talent. and there will always be somebody with more time to spend to wrench and to practice. And that can't be regulated by the rules or a spec class, or limited funds racing.

So the real underpinning, the honest, deep down inside yourself truth, is that it sucks to get beat. I'm no different. and I'm getting beat for different reasons than most. I have access to whatever I need. I don't have the time to tune it well, and frankly, I'm on the "back 9" of my racing career. I don't see as well, my reflexes are going, etc. But I still find time to complain about what I don't have. For me, it's time. Would it honestly help? Maybe. But I still gripe about it. and rather than go out to the shop and work on stuff for a race we have in 3 weeks, here I am. So it would appear, if I'm honest, that I know what I need to do, but I'm just not doing what it takes to be more competitive. Welcome to RC psych 101.

So if I know for a fact, that I cannot come within 2-4 laps of the national championship winning drivers I have to race with locally... how do I get myself motivated for that ass-whooping that happens every single time? (and it's been going on for 15 years with these guys) I look for the fun. Once you've got the skill of a new hobby relatively mastered, you can see where you are. Some people just like the challenge of the learning curve. Some, it's about the winning. If I'm really honest, I think the not winning really bums me out. Or the feeling of not having some "thing" that just came out that we didn't know was cool, so we didn't try it. Or the feeling that you brought a knife to a gun fight, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

I think people get tired of the fight, get excited by a new hobby. They participate HARD in the new hobby while it's exciting. They then get tired of the fight, blame what they don't have and move on.

Only way to keep people is keep it fun. And no amount of spending money can make something fun, especially if you're not winning while doing it. ONLY going to be one guy in 1st. The rest of us have to look for the fun and the challenges that motivate us as individuals.

No rules changes, no spec racing, no giving everybody free cars will help it. If your hobby isn't fun, why would you do it? It's supposed to fill your spare time. If it doesn't you find something else to do.

That tears it... I know why I haven't been as competitive lately...I'm gonna work on my stuff. (I think I just gave myself a pep talk... feel free to yell out virtual words of encouragement as I go to work on my stuff ). lulz...
One word...

YEP!
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:26 AM   #202
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At many on-road tracks, the only consistent turnouts year after year are for 1/10 tc stock. Trans-am has done relatively well, but the 17.5 tc turnouts are usually the highest by far. With the new esc's, the 17.5 class is almost at 13.5 speeds from a year ago. So the question is: what is someone who wants to have fun, but is either new or isn't at the skill level to fully control the new esc's and 17.5's (the new 13.5) supposed to do?

Everytime a new class starts and begins to get popular, a wallet race starts. The new hopups, the new electronics, the new batteries, etc begin to ruin the class. Look at the trans-am. What started as a class which used old equipment is now using the same $500 chassis, $200 esc's, and $100 batteries. And when rules are enforced, many of the racers balk and tracks run "house rules". If their are national rules for 17.5 stock, their should be the same rules for other classes.

The closest spec racing I have seen is the "senior spec" class that requires a stock tt01 chassis with several allowed hop-ups, hand out silver can motor (all about equal), spec tires (jaco blues) and limits on batteries. They get 20 racers each race for that class. With setups that can be bought for about $300 ready to race with everything including lipo battery, charger, radio, etc.

If you want r/c to stay fun, it is not always about the $$. Those who can afford to spend a lot of money on r/c eventually get fed up with the money pit, where everyone is changing equipment constantly to get "faster." The benefit of slower spec classes is that many hopups aren't allowed, and at the slower speeds, don't do much anyway. The new and old racer can race side by side because the slower speeds don't rely as much on fast reflexes, etc.

That is the recipe to grow the hobby. And honestly, for those that want to go really fast, slap in a 10.5 and enjoy.

As for ernie p, is this the same man who started motor war after motor war with brushed motor's that lasted fewer and fewer runs with each new model? (tri comm, stacked comm, new magnets, new brushes, new cans, etc.) Is this the same man who put out defective products and told the racers to go to **** when his products broke? And is this the same man who did everything he could to push the parts of the hobby he is now complaining about? Wow.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:42 AM   #203
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A hobby must remain fun to keep you motivated. I took three years off and I'm just getting back into it. I lost some of the fun then (and had two kids), now I'm back and in it to just have fun (having kids changed my prespective on things). Below is race footage of my recent (1/19/2010) runs in 12th 13.5 and 17.5 TC Rubber at MSI racing in Roseville, MI. I'm the red/white car in both. Did I win...no...did I have tons of fun...you bet. Stop the complaints and get your butt out to the track and race. Win or lose..it's all for the fun of it.

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Old 01-22-2010, 10:36 AM   #204
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Ladies and Gentlemen,

I can't take seeing this conversation go on again. The same issue exisits, but, generally speaking, over the last 6 years the industry has ignored this almost completely.

I'm in a pretty unique situation. I lived RC cars in my early teens in the late 80s early 90s. RC racings roots of scale racing hadn't dissapeared completely. College, girls and wanting to race real cars took me away from RC cars from 94-2003. I raced then raced stock TC in 2003 and began to see the start of the speed head craze that has minimized the influx of new blood to RC racing. At that time I raced with an 8 year old Kyosho TF-2, and was scoffed at. Forget that I was mid pack successful, my car was old, and I was an outsider. I stopped again until 2006. I went back to the track to see the cars looking nothing like real cars, flying around the track at break neck speeds, and the same racing elite speedfreaks (sorry guys) I ran with 3 years ealier. No new blood. Today, I still really only see these speedfreak RC elite racing at the tracks. RC racing is going the way of what slot cars did. THey originated as SCALE racing which was eventually sacrificed to the alter of speed to stupid fast wedges. Slot car racing practically died until scale slot cars racing became popular in Europe. The same exact thing is currently happening with RC racing. I've been sadly watching it's demise the last 6 years on the sidelines.

THE CARS ARE TOO FAST, CARS AND EQUIPMENT COSTS TOO MUCH, TRACKS ARE NOT TAILERED TO PROTECT THE BODIES, AND THE RACING ELITESTS LOOK DOWN ON ANTHING THAT ISN'T TAILERED TO GOING FASTER.

Racers don't use scale bodies becuase they are the fastest, and they get smashed due to the speeds and 2X4s. New comers don't recognize the cars becuase none look like real cars, and when they try to race they can't control the speeds.

I'm talking the talk, and now I'm hoping to help.

I cut out an 80' X 35', 4.5' lane width track in my backyard last summer, and will begin paving it this summer. In order to protect the scale looking bodies I'm going to mandate, I'm accounting for a lot of runoff. The cars will only run silver can motors, and the races will be 10 or less laps. I'm only allowing NiCd, or NiMh to keep the costs low. I'm trying to create rules to promote parity (regardless of what chassis you're using) and allow old timers to dig out there older equipment and have a racing format they can be competivite with. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

I'm trying to create racing that somewhat brings RC racing back to it's roots. If anyone has any questions or comments pelase PM me.

Sincerely,

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Old 01-22-2010, 10:57 AM   #205
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Everything is right on, except: mandate a certain inexpensive lipo pack. Nicd and nimh are a pain in the ***. A decent lipo pack costs about $60 and you only need 1 pack.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:26 PM   #206
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THE CARS ARE TOO FAST, CARS AND EQUIPMENT COSTS TOO MUCH, TRACKS ARE NOT TAILERED TO PROTECT THE BODIES, AND THE RACING ELITESTS LOOK DOWN ON ANTHING THAT ISN'T TAILERED TO GOING FASTER.
Too fast? That's GOOD NEWS. that means all of us have more power available than we can use. It's up to you to use that power effectively. No griping that we can't keep up. Just like in golf, you don't pull the driver out on every single shot, including the putt...

Cost to much? here's the rub... to who? We sell more Emaxx's than 1/12th scale cars... and those guys aren't coming to the track OR griping about the speed or how much it costs to race.... and they spent more... You suppose their having more fun? I think we sell more HPI BAJA's than 1/12th scale cars... and you can spend plenty of money on both to finish them out or make them more race-worthy.

And I'm not trying to be a pud, this question is for anybody... What is "to much"? What is to much to spend on a car that you can probably race for 2 years and sell for at least 1/2 of what you started with. How much is to much for an RC race car? I'll save you some aggravation. It's a rolling average that closely follows a families income. If you have 5-10% a month you can blow on hobbies and fun, that number could be anywhere from $50 to $2500 a month. So months more, some less. Fishing, paintball, camping, motocross, etc. The numbers are the same.

Show me a motorsport/hobby that's less expensive. They all tend to be about the same, it's the law of averages. People only have so much money to spend, on average for their hobbies. If you're spending $3000 a year on RC stuff, you'd spend that on fishing, stock car racing, motocross racing, etc. And those people, fishing, paintball, motorcross manage to also discuss how their industry is in peril (again), and that a person just can't be competitive. "what about the new guy?" It's the same straight across the board.

I went looking and found tons of articles just like this on other forums.

How to make paintball less expensive...
The expenses of quarter midget racing...

Hobby stock racing,
Tracks often take steps to lower competition costs. For example, one North Carolina track acquires used racing tires from the Hooters ProCup Series and then sells them for $100 a set for its Limited Late Model teams. Other tracks may do something as simple as give free pit passes to teams that show up to race week after week.

For most, this will just be a hobby. Winners of entry-level, 15 to 25-lap features usually take home only a trophy or anywhere from $50 to $100. You're not going to make any money, Boals says. You have to consider this just like a bass fisherman who goes out on the weekend to go fishing. It's just a hobby.

I found another article about motocross that was so close to our discussion that you could insert the word RC in place of motocross and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Same exact concerns, although they were a touch more worried about the industry than themselves, but was similar enough.

Cars get faster as people figure them out, it's just how it is. Nobody is going to buy lousy equipment and we as racers BEG for improved designs and that's what we get. And when we get the new hot stuff, we gripe when something better comes out that we don't have. I think it's human nature.

Factory's need good drivers on the payroll to test and develop. Unless you're willing to buy untested products. Good drivers show us the one thing that is almost completely overlooked every time this comes up... A better driver can always...ALWAYS drive your stuff faster than you can. Nobody likes to admit they are the weak link in the speed chain. Instead, it must be the new speed control that causes me to be 2 laps down all the time... Even though I'm slower with a 10.5 motor than a 17.5 Its the equipment. Must be the equipment I don't have. I've seen it so many times it makes me sick... with my own car... I'll be driving along listening to the lap times in practice...10.5, 10.4, 10.5, 10.4, 10.6... and perfectly on the line. "Hey Burch, take a few laps, how's this car feel to you?"...10.2, 10.0, 9.9, 9.8, 9.7, 9.8.... Hands it back, I dunno, I think it's better than my car.... I HATE THAT... but it happens every time I test it.

If you can't drive with improved lap times with a 21.5 all the way down to 4.5, then it's you...(I'm included) Stop blaming the industry, stop blaming equipment or the "cheaters" at your local track, and work on your stuff and get to the track and have fun. No spec racing can solve that. and if you really want to feel like you brought a knife to a gunfight, race a hard tech'd spec class... You can be finishing in nearly last and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Just practice, with a car that's not as fun, as you can't work on it. Where's the fun? Part of the fun is in the "tinkering" the legit hobby part of it.

Folks, we all have everything we need. The one thing that keeps people coming back is fun. keep it fun, that's it. We've never had a better time to be in the RC hobby. We have MASSIVE power, great cars, awesome radios, powerful servos, TONS of options and beautiful facilities. So what do you REALLY want? Fun.

Is it possible that we as an industry have finally made everything so good, so fast, so bullet proof, and so technicalogical, that we are finally over the heads of the average driver? the one thing none of us has been upgrading. The driver. Cars are 4 times faster over the last 20 years... I don't think we as humans have evolved our reflexes 4 times over in the same period.

Just like Joe Rogan says about technology. We all use it, but who REALLY understands it. If I sent you out into the wilderness right now with only a hatchet, how long until you could send me a fax?

Maybe the industry is to good at making what we want. we don't need spec racing... we need better drivers.

Nobody reads this far down a post... ...lol...
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:36 PM   #207
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Make it easy this way, if you are into racing go all out for it. if you got the best equiptments but having lousy hand & eye coordination. this eventually gets you nowhere. buying latest equiptment is not a neccessary. buy what you need to get where u want to be.

the trouble with rc industry, brand players uses psychology employing top racers to brainwash people via commercials. if u got what it takes to be a winner buy my X brands or you are a loser if u don't. after some time they tell u buy X ver 2 brand. some time again they tell u buy X ver 3 brand. this goes on & on in a short time. the trend has too much focus on commercialization.... ruling RC bodies in needs sponsorship will have to adapt to the terms & condition outlined by the brand players. so it all end up racers will have no choice but to comply...

if u are busy person, just treat RC as a hobby & go bash out with the guys for fun race. there is no big deal about that. after all we need some relieve end of the day after all the hard work.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:39 PM   #208
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You have to consider this just like a bass fisherman who goes out on the weekend to go fishing. It's just a hobby.

..
I fish during the summer...that's expensive! It's a hobby, it's fun and I like it.
RC does not cost that much in the grand scheme of things.

Fact is, if you suck or don't practice, then look in the mirror. You can't "cubic-dollars" your way to the winners circle..practice, patience, wrenching and having fun will make those days that your on, just that much more special.

Bob-Stormers post is a very wise article...read it, then step back, take your chill pill (mine is beer when I need it) and just repeat "toy cars and bowling trophies" several times..then you will be OK.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:45 PM   #209
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[QUOTE=Bob-Stormer;6892825]Too fast? That's GOOD NEWS. that means all of us have more power available than we can use.

With all due respect Mr Stormer, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The we in "then we can use" is the group of competition racing speed freak elites that I'm referring to above. You, and the other very experianced RCers may be capable of handling cars with this much potential, but usually a new comer cannot. If you're the owner of a track and hobby shop I'm sure you can attest to witnessing the newbie that spends a grand on nice racining equipment and not then being able to control the car on the track. Also, I know you speed freaks love going as fast as you can, but the cars today are too difficult for newcomers to have good, competitive races with. That has to be extremely frustrating for newcomer. Also, and this is area that I stress, due to the cars speeds, and the hacking that sometimes insues, the car bodies get beat to hell. Subsequently most drivers don't spend much time on there bodies to look like real race cars becasue the time gets wasted when the body gets smashed. I would bet more people being first introduced to RC racing would correlate more to slower, more realistic looking RC cars then the current TC and 1/12 cars that are raced today. As in slot cars, they have been reduced to flying wedges. There will always be a place for this tpye of racing, but it shouldn't the only one. Considerably slower cars run on a track that tries to protect the bodies would promote the racing of more scale looking bodies. Slower racing allows for more oppertunities for close, dog fight like, racing. Also a little rubbing car to car doesn't have nearly the catastrophic effect when the cars are run much slower.

Your thoughts on the costs of racing are interesting. You're right, it does differ from person to person. What I'm going to try and create is a rule set that can better accomadate older chassis and equipment that people may still have lying around, or can get cheaply on the internet. I would imagine most guys that used to race a while back would not want to have to buy all new equipment just to have a remote chance of being competitive.

Lastly, I really do agree with you about spec racing. I don't plan on doing that at all. Think of it as a rule set that is relatively open like most racing series, but with rules to really slow the cars down. For example, I'll allow any chassis for my Scale Touring car class, but the body will need to be a realistic one(ie tamiya), the drive train will need to match the real car, (ie no AWD Mustangs), only silver can motors, and then rules for each car chassis (ie final drive, weight, and tires) to create parity. I'm hoping to have AWD, RWD, Pro10, and FWD be able to compete together. I want a lot of variety in the chassis, I agree, I don't think a spec rules set is the answer.

PS. Those of you who think that slower racing isn't fun, should try running a silver can motored TC on a tight 4 foot wide track. It's more of a challenge then you would think.
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:19 PM   #210
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I'm not so sure speed is an issue to a newbie...to me it is more of an issue to those who have been around awhile and broken their fair share of parts. Watch anyone at a hobby shop buying their first RC car and what is the first thing they want to do with it? Get the most insanely fast motor they can and strap it in their car.
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