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Old 01-21-2010, 06:40 AM   #181
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I agree with Bob....they quit not because they cant handle speed or cost but they realize that for them racing is tough and hard work and the FUN factor has dropped.....
Must be a regional thing then. Around here it is mostly cost and difficulty. Which some would translate to it not being FUN

But wouldn't "cant handle speed" and "tough" be the same thing?
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:40 AM   #182
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:46 AM   #183
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Bob-Stormer, thank you for telling everyone that this is about having fun, and not spending thousands of dollars trying to win a bowling trophy.

If you look at it, every single rule suggestion is about trying to make it more fun. The problem is everyone has a different defintion of fun, and that's why there seems to be an ever increasing number of classes.

I love your idea about getting the hobby out of the basement, but here's a problem. I have an opportunity to have parking lot racing at a major shopping center, and possibly at the same time as a custom car show. The response I have so far?

"yawn"
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:12 AM   #184
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I'm trying to collect my thoughts and have never been good at expressing them, but I'll try.

I don't think for the average person it's a skill/sponsership problem. They come in and see the speeds and are like holy shit! Then they look around and see what people are driving and start adding up the numbers. Chassis $400-500, ESC $200 etc...

I have no problem racing against really good drivers, it makes you better in the long run.

What I do have a problem with is a cost factor. This is a hobby and honestly I just can't throw tons of money at it and I think are plenty of others in the same boat.

Just look at off road, first came the slash, cheap RTR racing class. Then as more companies followed suit, it's grown from a spec class to a cheaper RTR class.

I'm not saying on road needs a spec class, but it needs a cost controlled class.

Just shooting from the hip , but an example would be- tub chassis, ESC w/, no timing, boost, 3800 lipo etc...


Who knows, I may be off the mark, but if you want new people, I think on-road needs a class where people feel as though money isn't a factor.

As I've said, I don't mind racing the good drivers, but when I do, I don't want it to be with my TA05R, low end ESC and zippy lipos against a Xray T3 with a Tekin on 203 with a $200 SMC lipo.

This way, people will know that in 3 months, they'll still be competing again somewhat equal equipment.

I'll just wrap up by saying I've been in RC for long enough to know you can give me that $1000 car and give a local 'good' drive a cheaper set up and he'll beat me.

The problem is getting new people in and outsiders perceptions. I think that having a cost controlled class would go a long way to alleviate this problem.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:30 AM   #185
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That's what the Tamiya minis are for. The "Slash of on-road" I like to call it.

But a lot of the hardcore TC peeps can't seem to wrap their heads around it...their loss!
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:50 AM   #186
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The problem is getting new people in and outsiders perceptions. I think that having a cost controlled class would go a long way to alleviate this problem.
From what I've seen, part of the problem is that there really aren't any RTRs that fit the existing class structure. The HPI Flux is close, but the motor isn't VTA legal.

That was the beauty of the Slash. Cheap, hardy, quick enough, bashable, and a runaway success, and the barrier to entry was pretty low. Just add a battery and charger and you're good to go. A class sprang up to accommodate it, and people had a blast banging them around.

Now that The Gate has a prime, visible location, we get a decent amount of foot traffic. When passers-by wander in to watch an on-road race, show some interest, and then find out that most racers are running vehicles that cost well over $1000, they go back to Forza 3 on XBOX. Never mind that just being able to finish a 5 or 6 minute heat requires more skill than most newbies have. Even a Mini Cooper class isn't cheap if you're just starting out.
We have a Mini-Cooper that people can try out for free, but we've yet to see anyone that's tried it come back.

Back to beating the dead horse.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:24 PM   #187
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Personally, here's what I think is going on. In "the day", we didn't have anywhere to run. So we ran in parking lot's, malls, car shows, anywhere we could beg borrow or steal a place to setup a track and hand count laps. That usually put us right in front of the crowds and people with free time. New people saw us, the kind of people that just "happen" to see it, not go looking for it. Gradually, over time, we thought it would be AWESOME to have our own tracks, most of which are indoors and generally not in high traffic locations. Guess what, we are basically an underground activity now. because it's what we wanted (our own race facilities) and most are hard to find. In an era where everything is easy to find. Somebody else is gonna have a better shot at a new guy.

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Visibility is key. The only on road program that I see bringing new people in is in a parking lot on the main drag.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:31 PM   #188
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Now that The Gate has a prime, visible location, we get a decent amount of foot traffic. When passers-by wander in to watch an on-road race, show some interest, and then find out that most racers are running vehicles that cost well over $1000, they go back to Forza 3 on XBOX. .
Never tell anyone it costs $1000. I always tell people I have all this stuff since I accumulated it over the years (truth). I don't need all the junk I have (truth).

Last year F103 cars started taking off at the parking lot track. The car is $150, the radio can be about $100, and you can get a 3200 lipo for about $40, and a charger for $50 if you look at the right place, all brand new. Mini cars are similar, as well as used TC setups. Too many people reveal that they spend way too much money, but it's only because they love it. You can be racing real people, on a real track, for about the same as an Xbox with the game. This will actually appeal to some people, others, not so much.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:35 PM   #189
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and then find out that most racers are running vehicles that cost well over $1000, they go back to Forza 3 on XBOX. Never mind that just being able to finish a 5 or 6 minute heat requires more skill than most newbies have. Even a Mini Cooper class isn't cheap if you're just starting out.
We have a Mini-Cooper that people can try out for free, but we've yet to see anyone that's tried it come back.

Back to beating the dead horse.
Mini coopers are hard to drive and ill handling, I think it's punishment in some countrys to have to drive one. That ain't how you get a person in the sport.

If it was only about the money, how do you explain 400-500 people with $6500 machines at the local motocross track? Or $1000 fishing reels, or $4000 paint ball guns? our local dragstrip, 100-200 cars any race date. anywhere from $4000, to $65,000 machines. People go where it's fun.

I will agree that we are beating a dead horse (sorta). These kinds of threads surface about every 3-4 months, and a bunch of well meaning folks get together and beat on the topic some more. But we're preaching to the choir. We are all in the hobby already.

Mind you, I'd bet, REALLY BET, that if you go and hang out at places like motocross forums the concerns are similar. Same with hobby stock cars, surfers, paintballers, etc. Everybody trying to figure out how to get more people to do the hobby that they love, for the betterment of that hobby.

I don't know that there has ever been a thread in any "activity" forum, "How do we get rid of all the people that keep showing up to participate in our hobby".

Everybody wants to draw attention to their hobby and their cause. In our case, we also whine that we need faster and better equipment (as racers will do) until somebody else has the faster equipment... then it's unfair, and bad for the hobby.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:52 PM   #190
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I love your idea about getting the hobby out of the basement, but here's a problem. I have an opportunity to have parking lot racing at a major shopping center, and possibly at the same time as a custom car show. The response I have so far?

"yawn"
I'm thinking we probably spoiled ourselves... I don't want to sit out in the sun all day, risking the wind, extra setup, sketchy power for the pits. Car show makes it all worthwhile though... THOSE guys are some of the target market. When given the chance I try to get our guys to those kinds of events, no matter how small. We drove to a car show race about 2 years ago, was 290 miles one way, to put on demos with 4 other guys... LOT'S of interest. We handed out fliers to the crowd with local club links and links to ourselves. Showed where to buy it, how much to get a decent entry level setup and where to race it, and who to contact.

I still remember watching the club president walking down this long row of 300-400 spectators, handing out flyers. It was well done on our parts.

I think you can only reasonably expect say 1-2 racers from say 3000-5000 in local population. And the larger the population, the more there is for people to do, and the harder it is to hit that number or attract people. You have other people, just like us, trying to attract members.

We have a LOT more to offer though. And I'm not biased, we have advantages others don't. ANYBODY can do it. Grandpa can make laps with his 1/12th car.. Grandpa should NOT be making laps in the 250-c moto... Young people, old people, good for families, it doesn't favor gender and not only are you not going to find yourself hurt or in a chair from doing it poorly (bad accident in real vehicle), dudes in chairs can come out and be part of the crew and still kick ass. I like that a LOT. We have a lot going for us. ANYBODY can do it, and it's damn cheap especially if a persons ego isn't doing the purchasing.

You're ego is not your friend. There isn't a veteran on here that doesn't know he could EASILY put together a well thought out setup out of his old "crap" that would still probably dominate. Or that he couldn't EASILY take the last place dude, with some help and guidance, and bring him up a main or two. We all have stories about helping rookies, we don't need to muddy up the thread with them, but you get the idea.

It's about the fun. Prove it's fun, that's it. In any given town there are probably 10 times more RC dudes just beating stuff up and down streets and having a blast on the dirt pile by his buddies garage... Those guys are having fun without us. So the majority doesn't want to hang with the minority (racers). Why is that? It's not as much fun as they are having without us. Just have to figure that one out.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:54 PM   #191
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Mini coopers are hard to drive and ill handling, I think it's punishment in some countrys to have to drive one. That ain't how you get a person in the sport.

If it was only about the money, how do you explain 400-500 people with $6500 machines at the local motocross track? Or $1000 fishing reels, or $4000 paint ball guns? our local dragstrip, 100-200 cars any race date. anywhere from $4000, to $65,000 machines. People go where it's fun.

I will agree that we are beating a dead horse (sorta). These kinds of threads surface about every 3-4 months, and a bunch of well meaning folks get together and beat on the topic some more. But we're preaching to the choir. We are all in the hobby already.

Mind you, I'd bet, REALLY BET, that if you go and hang out at places like motocross forums the concerns are similar. Same with hobby stock cars, surfers, paintballers, etc. Everybody trying to figure out how to get more people to do the hobby that they love, for the betterment of that hobby.

I don't know that there has ever been a thread in any "activity" forum, "How do we get rid of all the people that keep showing up to participate in our hobby".

Everybody wants to draw attention to their hobby and their cause. In our case, we also whine that we need faster and better equipment (as racers will do) until somebody else has the faster equipment... then it's unfair, and bad for the hobby.

Those comparisons to me are not valid. People will spend money on things they love and have fun at. But I seriously doubt all those guys a new first time racers on that equipment.
Second it's still mindset, those are 'real' cars and motorcycles, not toys.

So you have on one hand a $6500 'real' motorcycle or $1000-$2000 in toy equipment?
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:15 PM   #192
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Those comparisons to me are not valid. People will spend money on things they love and have fun at. But I seriously doubt all those guys a new first time racers on that equipment.
Second it's still mindset, those are 'real' cars and motorcycles, not toys.

So you have on one hand a $6500 'real' motorcycle or $1000-$2000 in toy equipment?
I'm gonna respectfully disagree. We're not actually trying to compare the experience of being in a race car to driving a toy car (real vs. toy). We're talking about peoples discretionary income. and you said it yourself, people will spend money where it's fun. It's about spending your money to have a good time, where you feel you're gonna have the most fun. and if it's REALLY fun, "almost" nothing else matters. You'll make it work. paintball, fishing, motocross, etc. If all your buddies are having fun racing motocross, you're eventually going to find yourself at the track, you may not participate, but you'll talk about it, and experience it. Maybe even buy a bike but not take it to the track. Wasn't even what you were thinking about 3-4 years ago, yet it's what's putting a smile on the faces of all your friends. It's where you want to be. (actual sport is unimportant, it's about the smile.)

If it was ONLY about money, nothing would ever sell that was more than $20. No excuse to buy a $12,000 snowmobile to go ride with your buddies... But they still sell, with no real rationale. Or is there? Does anybody need a $30,000 boat to fish? FISHING FOR GOD SAKE...you can buy fish at the store for like 50 cents a ton....

anybody ever sees me with a fishing pole in my hand, shoot a hole in the boat and let me drown. I don't know how that got to be a hobby... And Cabela's isn't worried about RC... but I worry about Cabela's. They want our guys, our hobbiests, to lay down their transmitters and pick up fishing poles, and get a better skeet gun, and take the family out for the weekend with their fancy $400 sleeping bags and bear "resistant" tents.... DANG-IT, the want us to have FUN!!!
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:52 PM   #193
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I'm gonna respectfully disagree. We're not actually trying to compare the experience of being in a race car to driving a toy car. We're talking about peoples discretionary income. and you said it yourself, people will spend money where it's fun. It's about spending your money to have a good time, where you feel you're gonna have the most fun. and if it's REALLY fun, "almost" nothing else matters. You'll make it work. paintball, fishing, motocross, etc. If all your buddies are having fun racing motocross, you're eventually going to find yourself at the track, you may not participate, but you'll talk about it, and experience it. Maybe even buy a bike but not take it to the track. Wasn't even what you were thinking about 3-4 years ago, yet it's what's putting a smile on the faces of all your friends. It's where you want to be. (actual sport is unimportant, it's about the smile.)

If it was ONLY about money, nothing would ever sell that was more than $20. No excuse to buy a $12,000 snowmobile to go ride with your buddies... But they still sell, with no real rationale. Or is there? Does anybody need a $30,000 boat to fish? FISHING FOR GOD SAKE...you can buy fish at the store for like 50 cents a ton....

anybody ever sees me with a fishing pole in my hand, shoot a hole in the boat and let me drown. I don't know how that got to be a hobby... And Cabela's isn't worried about RC... but I worry about Cabela's. They want our guys, our hobbiests, to lay down their transmitters and pick up fishing poles, and get a better skeet gun, and take the family out for the weekend with their fancy $400 sleeping bags and bear "resistant" tents.... DANG-IT, the want us to have FUN!!!
True but all your examples are excesses that people that are ALREADY into the hobby are spending. Unless you're wealthy, no one that decides to try fishing, starts by going out and buying a 30k boat with a 12k reel on 3k rod.

Take my mountain biking, I used to BMX as a kid and decided to get back into biking. I didn't go out and buy a 7k mountain bike to start. I bough a cheap $200 POS, the more I rode and got back into it, I slowly upgraded.


Part of this thread was about getting new people in and yes the cost has to do with it.

Offered two choices, race 17.5 with $1000 needed or race this cost controlled class for $200-$300, which do you think a new non RCer is going to pick.

Want to get more kids involved, you have to sell it to parents.

I go back to the Slash, the price was right, had it been $500 I don't think it would have brought as many people in as it did at $200.


Personally, I think manufacturers, and ROAR should sit down, hammer out some rules for a 'cost controlled' class then get the manufacturers to release some onroad RTR like SC off road has.

Lot easier to sell when someone goes into a hobby shop and the clerk says any one of these 3 kits has everything you need to race class A for $200-300.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:12 PM   #194
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Mind you, I'd bet, REALLY BET, that if you go and hang out at places like motocross forums the concerns are similar. Same with hobby stock cars, surfers, paintballers, etc. Everybody trying to figure out how to get more people to do the hobby that they love, for the betterment of that hobby
I crew chef on a sprint car in the summer and race RC in the winter and the same conversation goes on in the sprint car forums. Car counts and fan attendance is down all over the country and everybody is trying to fix everything. New rules for this and new classes for that. Everybody is talking about entry level classes and cost of equipment to compete. Its only making things worse as it is in RC. I've been racing RC for over 15 years and all the bickering and trying to fix everything almost makes me want to quit. I don't know where I'm trying to go with this other than to let everyone know that RC isn't alone with its problems. All I know is I think we would be better off with the attitude of just go race, have fun, and just enjoy the moment. That always seems to get lost in all the discussions.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:17 PM   #195
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Apparently, complaining is fun across all hobbies.
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