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Old 01-17-2010, 07:31 PM   #166
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:27 PM   #167
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I've been in rc since the early 90's.The state of racing in general now is a pity.
Vta brought me back into racing after a long break.The strong rules with no exceptions is a great idea.
When I started racing (off road by the way) There were clear class lines. Rookie,stock and mod.When I turned to on road it was basically the same.
Now there are so many classes in onroad, that are not defined as to what they are, new people coming to the hobby feel lost.
I feel this is a step in the right direction and only time will tell.
My 2cents!
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:04 PM   #168
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I was just thinking about how it works in nitro offroad - obviously theres no motor classes but run time and lap times keep everything very fair.
Timing and scoring systems can very accurately track peoples average laps and speed and bump them automatically - Dan does it at ARC all the time.

so lets just run it like nitro offroad

everyone races 13.5, 10 min mains.
rookie - sportsman - intermediate - pro

Go ahead - advance the crap out of your timing and gear tall - if you can handle it you either just bumped yourself up into the next class or your car dies at 8 min. If you cant handle it you go into the wall.
If its too fast we can require rooie/sportsman to to run a roar approved "stock spec" esc that is purpose built to slow the motor down. Or even better just have it be a setting - stock mode and mod mode

I dont think theres enough people club racing electric onroad to justify breaking up each motor turn into three groups. Also you cant force a guy killing everyone in 17.5 to bump up to 13.5 - maybe he doesnt have $80 for the motor and you cant send him home.
If everyone is racing with the same motor and relatively the same esc you can just tell the sand baggers to switch their esc over to mod mode and bump up for the next round of qualifying.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:23 AM   #169
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Here's an idea... What if a new governing organization was created and organized races that were more like a series of races with points structures like real car racing? Instead of a once a year national event to crown a National Champion it was based on a season of races to crown the National Champion ( just like full size car racing ) . It could be similar to what Jimmy Babcock ( sorry if I spelled your name wrong ) is doing in Ca. and Kenny Brosh is doing in Az. but make it at tracks throughout the country. Maybe it could be 1 race a month for say 7-8 months. To promote the series ( again just a thought ) the race promoters could team up with ( or try to ) companies like RockStar or RedBull and put up cash prizes with small purses for each monthly race with grand prizes to the end of season for the Champions. To help with exposure also team up with events like Barrett Jackson, Nascar races and IRL races or some other car enthusiast events and hold races at their events. This way the hobby would get exposure to new people and the race sponsors would get additional exposure at the particular event the race was being held at.
A few things I left out of this part is at the races that were being held at venues with people watching an RC race for the first time and being exposed to RC racing for the first time there could be RC racers or some hired people in the crowds answering questions and handing out Q and A info ( maybe a few page magazine ) aimed at attracting new people into the hobby that also included a listing of tracks in each state so the people knew where to go near them to get started in the hobby.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:08 PM   #170
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I admit right off the top I have not read the entire thread....I just dont see how we can have a 21.5 sportsman T/C class and how we can dictate what speedo to run...VTA I believe has given R/C the begineer class back and then you have RCGT.....The problem is we will just keep diluting classes at a club level by trying to have 21.5,17.5,13.5 and MOD....How can R/C grow espeacially On-road? I agree that 13.5 and 17.5 for that matter are very fast and yes speedo advancement is creating a wave in power just like battery wars did in the past...The other problem is what if the "average joe" wants to go to the nationals and travels to maryland or omaha and wants to run more than 1 class and both are TC what then he cant run 21.5 and 17.5 right? I mean really this seems to be that ROAR is trying to get more people to there events but man who wants to travel that far and only run 1 class? maybe 21.5 and 17.5 are sportsman and 13.5 and mod are for the sponsored.

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Old 01-18-2010, 01:01 PM   #171
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If you have been racing for awhile (I have since 88) and raced in southern Cali and south/central Florida..then EP is an ICON. Yeah Ernie..you been around a while and deserve credit. Isn't it amazing how things come around??

I personally know a dozen or more racers over the years with major sponsorships who run or used to run stock class at ROAR regional/natl events and I hated them for it.

For some of you racers..you remember back in 93 or 94 was it when ROAR (meaning R/C manufactures; as its this racers opinion that ROAR is nothing but a way in which the fox rules the hen house) banned the use of 7 cells?? Well..you remember the "results"? Well history repeats itself..whenever you get "manufactures" dictating to an industry..that usually spells trouble.

I would have thought that ROAR and its legions of Mfg's would have learned by now. "Too many Manufactures making too many different products for the market". IMHO this is the very reason for the decline in ROAR.

Track owners you do what "your" LOCAL market dictates..racing across our country is as different as traveling around Europe; think about it.

I don;t know about you but this racer wants less government in his life and not more. If this comes at the expense of less classes run..then so be it

/me .02 cents worth
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:37 PM   #172
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Might work in the U.S But i doubt in smaller country like sweden.

Sure, the stock is to fast these days, but it is already to many different classes around.

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Old 01-18-2010, 02:02 PM   #173
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so why are all the experianced racers that run 17.5 not running 13.5? I dont understand? if your not a beginner, then step up to the next level...

look can someone just answer this...if you have been in the hobby for years and have a great deal of set up knowledge and driving skill, THEN WHY STAY IN 17.5? why not tackle the challege of 13.5??
Because 17.5, especially when there are a group of good drivers, is fun as hell to run!! With good drivers in a 17.5 class the racing is tight, and the lap times are close.The slash took off like it did because it was a fun class, not because it was the fastest thing on 4 wheels.You can have the same fun in other classes by simply bolting in a 17.5 and fighting the urge to make it faster than it needs to be.I think a much simpler approach would be to either ban, or limit timing advance/boost speedo's in sportsman level stock/17.5 classes.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:41 PM   #174
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Surprised no one has mentioned it yet. The one thing it may do is make a few manufacturers rethink some of the 50% sponsorships that they use to move products out the door at a higher price that wholesale. I could see where a bunch of local hobby shops might stand to gain, keep tracks open, giving new racers a place to start.

Talk about thread drift

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That is why we do not offer any 50% sponsorships. That is what a dealer pays us and would make the driver a customer instead of a team member that we are investing in to thank them for what they do for us. We do everything we can to support and protect the dealers that are the backbone of racing. We like to think our sponsorships are earned and anyone that has one does not belong in a sportsman class.

Notice I did not say 'stock' class. Driving a stock motor fast is a skill just like any other and requires smooth lines to carry speed. We need a slower class for beginners and casual racers. We do not need to force many talented drivers to run mod. Mod and stock are different skills and the best at each should be allowed to compete. Passing slower cars is also part of that skill so stay in your line and make them earn it.

I understand the need for a place to learn and not be in the way. I do not understand not wanting to measure yourself against the best at major events. Some understand that 40th in a class of 90 is more meaningful than 1st in a group of beginners. At the recent CRCRC offroad championships the stock classes were over 90 deep. Beginners were shuffled to the G or H main where they could race against people of similar ability. So winning the G was your glory. Enjoy it and practice more and maybe next time you will make the D. Race twice a week for a few years, put in your time and learn how to setup your car, and you might make the B or even the A if you are super talented. If you just want some meaningless hardware try little girls figure skating where everyone gets a prize.

At the local level you do what makes sense for your customers and keeps them happy. It is all about having fun and business do need to keep them coming back to stay open. If you come to a national event and sign up for stock, strap it up the best you can and respect the time and dedication the guys that are flying by have put into it. They have earned it. They did not buy their way to the front or have it given to them thru sponsorship.

I noticed a few other comments that hit the mark with us. Many OEM’s do not put anything back into the hobby. Think about that when you are saving a few bucks on a low cost import online and have no where to race it. Typically the money saved is barely gas, entry fees and a set of tires for a single race.

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Old 01-20-2010, 08:05 PM   #175
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^^Good read.
It's interesting to see the side from the seasoned veterans, as a lot of us haven't been racing long, and so only get a snapshot of where the hobby is at now.
I agree on stock being a difficult class to master. I used to argue it's for beginners, but have reaslised lately that beginners and stock don't have to be the same thing!
I think also many racers are confusing their local club scene with national level racing. It ain't the same thing. I think if people look more at having "novice" classes at club level it would suit club racers more. That is what I am pushing for at our club at the moment.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:09 PM   #176
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That is why we do not offer any 50% sponsorships. That is what a dealer pays us and would make the driver a customer instead of a team member that we are investing in to thank them for what they do for us. We do everything we can to support and protect the dealers that are the backbone of racing. We like to think our sponsorships are earned and anyone that has one does not belong in a sportsman class.

Notice I did not say 'stock' class. Driving a stock motor fast is a skill just like any other and requires smooth lines to carry speed. We need a slower class for beginners and casual racers. We do not need to force many talented drivers to run mod. Mod and stock are different skills and the best at each should be allowed to compete. Passing slower cars is also part of that skill so stay in your line and make them earn it.

I understand the need for a place to learn and not be in the way. I do not understand not wanting to measure yourself against the best at major events. Some understand that 40th in a class of 90 is more meaningful than 1st in a group of beginners. At the recent CRCRC offroad championships the stock classes were over 90 deep. Beginners were shuffled to the G or H main where they could race against people of similar ability. So winning the G was your glory. Enjoy it and practice more and maybe next time you will make the D. Race twice a week for a few years, put in your time and learn how to setup your car, and you might make the B or even the A if you are super talented. If you just want some meaningless hardware try little girls figure skating where everyone gets a prize.

At the local level you do what makes sense for your customers and keeps them happy. It is all about having fun and business do need to keep them coming back to stay open. If you come to a national event and sign up for stock, strap it up the best you can and respect the time and dedication the guys that are flying by have put into it. They have earned it.

I noticed a few other comments that hit the mark with us. Many OEM’s do not put anything back into the hobby. Think about that when you are saving a few bucks on a low cost import online and have no where to race it. Typically the money saved is barely gas, entry fees and a set of tires for a single race.

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specifically the differentiator between "Stock" and "Sportsman"
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:11 AM   #177
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so why are all the experianced racers that run 17.5 not running 13.5? I dont understand? if your not a beginner, then step up to the next level...

look can someone just answer this...if you have been in the hobby for years and have a great deal of set up knowledge and driving skill, THEN WHY STAY IN 17.5? why not tackle the challege of 13.5??
For the same reason I like to do it. Value at the track. I want to run 2 cars. Not 2 completely different cars with different parts and tires etc. To do run 2 similar cars, I only have that choice, 13.5 and 17.5 (if that's what's offered) Saves me time and money and I can share setup information between the cars. Better bang for the racing buck. Why would I want to run touring 13.5 and 1/12th 13.5 when I could run two 1/12th classes? Or whatever. Costs twice as much in spares and doubles your aggravation level. I spend most of my time in the pits wondering why my car handles like butt. I don't need to 2 completely different cars to complicate the matter any further.


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I know if I saw today's 17.5 run and was told that was the slowest TC class I could be in I might think twice about if I wanted to join the hobby.
Spend a little time behind the counter of our shop or any shop. You know what sells? The RTR box with the biggest MPH potential printed on it. It's exactly the opposite of what you're feeling, relative to joining the hobby. This one says 30, that one says 65, look similar enough to Joe average and the prices are close... you can see where that's probably going to lead. especially if it's two buddies gonna beat 'em up and down the street. They don't want to join the hobby at 15mph.

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Maybe we should stop tying to convince ourselves and the non rc community(the ones we want to join our fun) that rc racing is affordable?(racing is not affordable).

Bottom line is it cost money to race. There should be levels of speed to separate classes not income level or sponsorship level.
People say it's about money, it never is. It's about fun. If it was only about money, there would be no legitimate way to explain the 400-500 entries at your local motocross events with new bikes in the $6500 range. I paid more for my last MX helmet than a Revo 3.3, and that's pretty common... Did you know you can get a fishing reel in the $1000 range? now THAT is ridiculous... ...lol... People, as a rule, never quit doing something that is fun. People do quit things that are no longer fun and blame everything else.

I've seen guys gripe about the expense, show up at the track to hang out (2 weeks later) with a new $6500 dirt bike in the back. You've all seen something like it. Think about the $1000 fishing reel, or spend $4000 on a paintball machine gun?

It ain't about the money, it's about the fun. Or no hobby product on earth would ever sell if it was more than $20 bucks.

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This hobby has been dying a slow and painful death when I started in the mid-80s, it'll still be dying the same slow, painful death when we've all moved on to something else. We always talk about growing the hobby but it's always been about the same size. Those of us that talk about the glory days are just remembering back to a time when we were surprised about the size of a given race.
Personally, here's what I think is going on. In "the day", we didn't have anywhere to run. So we ran in parking lot's, malls, car shows, anywhere we could beg borrow or steal a place to setup a track and hand count laps. That usually put us right in front of the crowds and people with free time. New people saw us, the kind of people that just "happen" to see it, not go looking for it. Gradually, over time, we thought it would be AWESOME to have our own tracks, most of which are indoors and generally not in high traffic locations. Guess what, we are basically an underground activity now. because it's what we wanted (our own race facilities) and most are hard to find. In an era where everything is easy to find. Somebody else is gonna have a better shot at a new guy.

And a quick thought on sponsored drivers that nobody brought up. Aren't 99% of kids under the age of 16 fully sponsored drivers? You get ALL your lodging paid, all your parts, travel, entry fees paid, etc. No need to post that your 14 and buying your own stuff, you're not the majority, but good for you if you are.

My son has never bought a part in his life, he's not sponsored by anybody more than the next kids dad is paying for his kids to enjoy some family time. I'm not getting anything for free, am I sponsored? How exactly are we going to determine that?

It's all lip service. Post up some rules, not some "ideas".

Racing flourishes where it's fun, dies where it is not. It's as simple as that. People with a bit of spare income are looking for some fun. They'll find it. If not, they'll move on. Why do something that's not fun, just because somebody else decided you had a fair shot? It's not about fair or money, it's about fun.

Yes there are exceptions to every rule. but only if you want to argue for the sake of hearing yourself. ...lol... Nobody quits doing something that's fun and puts a smile on their face or the faces of people in their families. That's it folks. It's that simple. No amount of rules changes, and griping about what somebody else has that you might not, will change it.

People gripe they want good equipment. That is until equipment comes out that they feel is better than the equipment they had... then it's "unfair" (even though it was perfectly fair when they had the "better" equipment). We're "racing" aren't we? Cars aren't a "forever" kind of thing. neither are speedo's or radios. Nobody bitches about the guy with the most expensive radio racing a guy that doesn't even have dual rate. I don't see anybody from the VCR council of America worried about me having a DVD player. It's technology, it marches on, with or without us and our bag phones and laser disc players. My new cell phone has more technology in it than the first space shuttle did.... and don't call my cell either... I'm still trying to figure out how to answer this new one... CRIPES....

get outta the cellar and get back to the malls and auto shows. Hiding in old warehouses ain't getting us visibility or showing us to anybody new.

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Old 01-21-2010, 05:25 AM   #178
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:51 AM   #179
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Spend a little time behind the counter of our shop or any shop. You know what sells? The RTR box with the biggest MPH potential printed on it. It's exactly the opposite of what you're feeling, relative to joining the hobby. This one says 30, that one says 65, look similar enough to Joe average and the prices are close... you can see where that's probably going to lead. especially if it's two buddies gonna beat 'em up and down the street. They don't want to join the hobby at 15mph.


I agree with you for those that want to bash. Not necessarily for those that want to competitively race. Those that do think that and then finally do race are quite surprised how difficult it is at those speeds and do 1 of two things. They quickly get a slower motor or quit racing. I've seen it a million times and when they realize the equipment they need costs as much as the RTR they just bought they usually quit (racing at least). Its surprising how much slower a car seems when there aren't barriers on either side of you.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:07 AM   #180
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I agree with you for those that want to bash. Not necessarily for those that want to competitively race. Those that do think that and then finally do race are quite surprised how difficult it is at those speeds and do 1 of two things. They quickly get a slower motor or quit racing. I've seen it a million times and when they realize the equipment they need costs as much as the RTR they just bought they usually quit (racing at least). Its surprising how much slower a car seems when there aren't barriers on either side of you.
I agree with Bob....they quit not because they cant handle speed or cost but they realize that for them racing is tough and hard work and the FUN factor has dropped.....
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