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Old 01-16-2010, 02:01 PM   #151
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That's part of racing etiquette. You shouldn't have to be reminded every time. If you are being lapped, you don't block the leader and try to cause accidents. Seen a lot of that recently too. The video game mentality kicks in then I guess. When they get criticized for it they just go "I don't want to play this game anymore" and pop in a new disk somewhere else.
The pro drivers that raced at my track to me to drive my line and they will go around me. I use to get out of their way but since then I just drive my line. If you want to yell and curse that fine with me, the older I get the less hearing I have.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:16 PM   #152
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the current state of R/C is dying a slow death...and most of the manufacturers are to blame.

In my experience as a former Hobby Shop retailer when a customer walked into the store the overall price of a package cost (although relatively high) was reasonable compared to today's prices and the HS owner had room to discount some products whereby making the customer feel good about the purchase. When you sold a kit, you benefit from the sale of a charger, a few battery packs, paint...and other misc items to complete the overall package...you were able to work with the customer on price and still earn a reasonable gross margin

Today, the OEM's do not protect the brick and mortor LHS from internet stores. They have never gathered together to further promote the hobby beyond the borders of those of us who grew up in the hobby and our cult-like events. And today, they are pushing RTR, whereby dumbing down the hobby under the guise of "we're providing better value for the customer". That's BS!!! In today's world, stores have a difficult time maintaining gross margins, imagine what its like for an indoor track without strong retail sales to help pay the bills.

When you sell an RTR, you make nothing on it. I'm not is the business anymore but still stop by the store from time to time...Imagine an ASC RTR SC10 kit that sells for $279, (great for the one-time buyer) but what happens for the customer when the store has to close because he makes nothing on these kits. This customer views the hobby and its kits as toys and has a limited interest in continuing the hobby.

In racing the more classes we offer at a competitive venue ONLY benefits the manufacturers. You want to enhance the racers experience...offer fewer classes with longer durations of race time...no reason why we don't have 10 minutes mains and qualifiers (imagine having to gear a car to not dump - the good old days) Public support from the likes of those manufacturers who posted are this thread are nice but does nothing to strengthen the hobby or racing experience.

Someone mentioned brushless systems would change things and for certain it has. So long as you can keep up with the technology its great. Part of the reason why the Tamiya TCS series is so successful is at any time, you can pick up your Tamiya chassis and go racing (and have a ton of fun) while still feeling somewhat competitive.

ROAR needs to enforce just two options for racing...stock and modified class. Forget this pro-stock BS! Your not going to police sponsored drivers at a race. That's all BS!!!

Extend the qualifiers to 10 minutes for 1/10th scale and 12 minutes for 1/12th scale. You can afford this by eliminating a "pro-stock" class at big races that have 25+ heats. You want to bring speeds under control...start by limiting the ability to finish the race based on power capacity. Lets bring back racing strategy in order to finish the race. People forget the gift of throttle driving and those that were smart were there at final 1 minute to challenge for the lead. The speedo companies have found the way to juice up a 17.5 way beyond what brushed 27t could ever achieve.

Had I continued to stay involved with ROAR, this is the direction I would have pushed for racing guidelines.

probably PO'd a few people...sorry.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:33 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
the current state of R/C is dying a slow death...and most of the manufacturers are to blame.

In my experience as a former Hobby Shop retailer when a customer walked into the store the overall price of a package cost (although relatively high) was reasonable compared to today's prices and the HS owner had room to discount some products whereby making the customer feel good about the purchase. When you sold a kit, you benefit from the sale of a charger, a few battery packs, paint...and other misc items to complete the overall package...you were able to work with the customer on price and still earn a reasonable gross margin

Today, the OEM's do not protect the brick and mortor LHS from internet stores. They have never gathered together to further promote the hobby beyond the borders of those of us who grew up in the hobby and our cult-like events. And today, they are pushing RTR, whereby dumbing down the hobby under the guise of "we're providing better value for the customer". That's BS!!! In today's world, stores have a difficult time maintaining gross margins, imagine what its like for an indoor track without strong retail sales to help pay the bills.

When you sell an RTR, you make nothing on it. I'm not is the business anymore but still stop by the store from time to time...Imagine an ASC RTR SC10 kit that sells for $279, (great for the one-time buyer) but what happens for the customer when the store has to close because he makes nothing on these kits. This customer views the hobby and its kits as toys and has a limited interest in continuing the hobby.

In racing the more classes we offer at a competitive venue ONLY benefits the manufacturers. You want to enhance the racers experience...offer fewer classes with longer durations of race time...no reason why we don't have 10 minutes mains and qualifiers (imagine having to gear a car to not dump - the good old days) Public support from the likes of those manufacturers who posted are this thread are nice but does nothing to strengthen the hobby or racing experience.

Someone mentioned brushless systems would change things and for certain it has. So long as you can keep up with the technology its great. Part of the reason why the Tamiya TCS series is so successful is at any time, you can pick up your Tamiya chassis and go racing (and have a ton of fun) while still feeling somewhat competitive.

ROAR needs to enforce just two options for racing...stock and modified class. Forget this pro-stock BS! Your not going to police sponsored drivers at a race. That's all BS!!!

Extend the qualifiers to 10 minutes for 1/10th scale and 12 minutes for 1/12th scale. You can afford this by eliminating a "pro-stock" class at big races that have 25+ heats. You want to bring speeds under control...start by limiting the ability to finish the race based on power capacity. Lets bring back racing strategy in order to finish the race. People forget the gift of throttle driving and those that were smart were there at final 1 minute to challenge for the lead. The speedo companies have found the way to juice up a 17.5 way beyond what brushed 27t could ever achieve.

Had I continued to stay involved with ROAR, this is the direction I would have pushed for racing guidelines.

probably PO'd a few people...sorry.
This is because part of the problem is the RC companies are being eaten up by the larger walmart style companies. Just look at Losi, since Horizon took over they have more toy style cars then racing vehicles, and the qaulity in the race vehicles has severly dropped. Horizon is only interested in lining its own pockets, they have done the same thing to Hanger9 which was once an excellent company for buying planes, they are just ok now, and only on par with the chinese arf's.

These companies are narrow sighted and only care for profit margins and shareholders, they do not look to the future so if the online stores are making them profit, why bother with the bricks and motor stores, it will catch up eventually.

Losi back in the day was the bench mark that the other companies would strive for, why bother updating your current kits when they are competitive against the latest walmart crap coming out of China.

When these companies invest back into the hobby our sport grow and prosper, they are after all, just shooting themselves in the foot. Then again the basher market is much more profitable, so to keep the shareholders happy that is what they cater to.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:12 PM   #154
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Wow, quite the thread!
I agree with banning sponsored (any level) drivers from running stock class at regional and national events. I also think that stock is stock - period. Out of the box - run it as is.

One of my happiest moments in RC was at 2009 electric off-road nats when I watched a Kyosho driver fail to TQ or win stock classes, beaten by a privateer. I won't name names, but what a putz! That class is the breeding ground for truly good talent to pick up sponsors, not for sandbaggers to score an easy win.

I ran stock 27T brushed at our local races in the mod class to prepare for nats, and was still able to podium occasionally locally, but really got my arse handed to me at nats. Dead-freakin' last! Funny thing, though, I wasn't really surprised or even disappointed. There are some really talented drivers out there!

Most of our local 'sponsored' guys are definitely looking for the win for their resumes, but most will limit themselves voluntarily, like running 13.5 in mod class just to get better competition and improve themselves. That I can respect.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post

ROAR needs to enforce just two options for racing...stock and modified class. Forget this pro-stock BS! Your not going to police sponsored drivers at a race. That's all BS!!!

Extend the qualifiers to 10 minutes for 1/10th scale and 12 minutes for 1/12th scale. You can afford this by eliminating a "pro-stock" class at big races that have 25+ heats. You want to bring speeds under control...start by limiting the ability to finish the race based on power capacity. Lets bring back racing strategy in order to finish the race. People forget the gift of throttle driving and those that were smart were there at final 1 minute to challenge for the lead. The speedo companies have found the way to juice up a 17.5 way beyond what brushed 27t could ever achieve.

Had I continued to stay involved with ROAR, this is the direction I would have pushed for racing guidelines.

probably PO'd a few people...sorry.
Carl, I noticed your sig shows onroad nitro stuff. For the last 6 months I've been racing nitro and had nothing but fun. The big reason for that is that YOU CAN'T CHEAT NITRO. Another big reason is that I get to run 20 or 40min mains. I can tell you from my experience that I qualified as low ninth position only to finish second or even first at the end of the main. A lot can happen with pitstops and from the stamina of the driver to maintain his pace and that can make the difference between winning and losing let alone finishing.

With electric, if you're not within the lead lap in the first three (3) laps, you're basically done for the day. Five (5) minutes is just too short. There's no fun in putting all that effort in setting up your car only to race for such a short time. I strongly agree that ten (10) minutes should be the new norm. With everyone running lipos with capacity greater than say 4000mah, this shouldn't be a problem.

Really, until the format changes, I don't think I would want to go back to electric because its just not worth it. Its not worth all that effort or all that equipment just for a lousy 5 minutes of glory.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:51 PM   #156
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This hobby is no where close to dying but in my opinion, there should be a set standard of rules globally for racing that covers everything. National events need to follow as well as club level.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:19 PM   #157
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I agree with the letter 100%. We don't have a lot of sponsored driver in NZ, probably no full-timers that's for sure, but we do have a lot of drivers with big bank accounts that get all of the latest gear.
That is fine and dandy if you are a seasoned driver, but it makes for boring race days when you can't afford all the guff, and there is no class for a fairly standard car, so you're only ever going to be making up numbers.
We still have silver cans for stock in NZ which is actually really good, BUT, you can run any chassis, hop-up's, esc, radio etc. Again, the silver can is kind of levelling it, but some guys have set-up's over $1,000US to run in what I believe is supposed to be a class for all.
I'm backing the Tamiya Mini class now. Our rules are out-of the box set-up only, standard Tamiya ESC, and silver can. That is a class anyone can, and does, enjoy a lot, for a small outlay.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:13 PM   #158
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On road might be in trouble, but the turnouts in off road are still excellent. Dirt is traction limited, you can only use so much power.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:20 AM   #159
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OFF ROAD RULES
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:22 AM   #160
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Here's a thought... or two.......

What does having a sponsor really have anything to do with how fast a person is at a race and using that as a gage to judge what classes a person can run in? How many people are out there that have sponsors and their peers just shake their head at them wondering how the heck they got sponsorship when can't get out of their own way? Does that racer belong with the Pros?
A few years back you did need to be on a team to get good batteries during battery war times but Lipos fixed that. Today the average racer can buy good stuff from his LHS that is competitive with any team drivers equipment. The new programmable ESCs actually save the average racer money because they can simply load a new software which they download for free and don't have to run out and buy new ESCs every time an improvement is made.

How about this for class rules...

If a racer made an A main at any large race in a class below Mod ( or Pro ) within, say the last 3 years, you can only run in Mod class going forward. If you made an A or B main in a Mod ( or Pro ) class at a large race within the last 3 years, you also can only run mod class.

This will force people to move up in the ranks. Each year it would be new blood winning big races in the lower level classes. Also there seems to be way too many classes as well which contributes to thinning the amount of people in each class. At large races like a Nationals there should be Stock ( maybe 17.5 motors ) and Mod and maybe throw in Short Course for giggles and do away with super stock or any other " I cant win in Mod and Stock is too slow but still want to be a big fish" class.

Look at SuperCross...You have 2 classes - Lights and SX. When you win in Lights, you move up the following season. Has anyone won the Lights title 2-3 years in a row? Why not? You don't see people racing both classes unless it's a Lights guy testing the waters in SX prepping for the following year.

Maybe it's time for a new governing body with new ideas. Although ROAR works hard to do a tough job, the hobby has stood still in time. This could be mainly due to the hobby being basically a small community that most of the public has no idea even exists. To grow the hobby new people have to be exposed to it. How often are the sponsors of an event companies other than manufacturers from within the hobby? A few posts back somebody said the the manufacturer's are turning out to much RTRs and other crap that is hurting racing and LHS. The same companies are the ones putting up money to help LHS host the large events to race at.

Here's an idea... What if a new governing organization was created and organized races that were more like a series of races with points structures like real car racing? Instead of a once a year national event to crown a National Champion it was based on a season of races to crown the National Champion ( just like full size car racing ) . It could be similar to what Jimmy Babcock ( sorry if I spelled your name wrong ) is doing in Ca. and Kenny Brosh is doing in Az. but make it at tracks throughout the country. Maybe it could be 1 race a month for say 7-8 months. To promote the series ( again just a thought ) the race promoters could team up with ( or try to ) companies like RockStar or RedBull and put up cash prizes with small purses for each monthly race with grand prizes to the end of season for the Champions. To help with exposure also team up with events like Barrett Jackson, Nascar races and IRL races or some other car enthusiast events and hold races at their events. This way the hobby would get exposure to new people and the race sponsors would get additional exposure at the particular event the race was being held at.

Again, just expressing a few thoughts here.......

A few groups of people may not like these ideas. The first one will be the guy racing in the middle " I want to be a big fish, fluff " classes. Another group may be ROAR and also the manufacturers because with outside money coming into the hobby they won't have as much control over the hobby or at least racing rules and events.

Last edited by RC Racer OG; 01-17-2010 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:47 AM   #161
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I love it! ROAR is heading in the right step!IMO

Why doesn't a speedo co. make a new brushless speedo to support the "Sportsman Stock" concept. A non programmable speed control with 3 set profiles, fixed spec brushless motors, and specific lipos only for a dedicated time period. Its getting so old searching for the latest greatest software to download into your speedo. How is this good for new blood coming into the hobby?
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:00 AM   #162
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Carl, 10 minutes for touring car and 12 minutes for 1/12 scale? Personally I love the idea, but consider this. RC madness just recently re-opened at their new location. Currently they are running 5 minute TC heats. One NY racer who we both know and love suggested going to the ROAR standard 6 minutes. The response from someone at RCM was the big races that count like the Snowbirds and the IIC run 5 minutes, so that's what we run.

How do you fight that?

And never apologize for getting anyone mad by expressing your opinion and trying to save RC. People have to understand that something has to change or our hobby is destined for extinction. Of course that's why everyone hates me.
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:14 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by RC Racer OG View Post
Here's an idea... What if a new governing organization was created and organized races that were more like a series of races with points structures like real car racing? Instead of a once a year national event to crown a National Champion it was based on a season of races to crown the National Champion ( just like full size car racing ) . It could be similar to what Jimmy Babcock ( sorry if I spelled your name wrong ) is doing in Ca. and Kenny Brosh is doing in Az. but make it at tracks throughout the country. Maybe it could be 1 race a month for say 7-8 months. To promote the series ( again just a thought ) the race promoters could team up with ( or try to ) companies like RockStar or RedBull and put up cash prizes with small purses for each monthly race with grand prizes to the end of season for the Champions. To help with exposure also team up with events like Barrett Jackson, Nascar races and IRL races or some other car enthusiast events and hold races at their events. This way the hobby would get exposure to new people and the race sponsors would get additional exposure at the particular event the race was being held at.
I Agree %100
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:39 PM   #164
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That sounds pretty similar to the Euro Touring Series as well:

http://ets.redrc.net/

I think that's a totally awesome format - It really mimics full size racing series like the DTM or ALMS
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Old 01-17-2010, 06:05 PM   #165
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Carl, 10 minutes for touring car and 12 minutes for 1/12 scale? Personally I love the idea, but consider this. RC madness just recently re-opened at their new location. Currently they are running 5 minute TC heats. One NY racer who we both know and love suggested going to the ROAR standard 6 minutes. The response from someone at RCM was the big races that count like the Snowbirds and the IIC run 5 minutes, so that's what we run.

How do you fight that?

And never apologize for getting anyone mad by expressing your opinion and trying to save RC. People have to understand that something has to change or our hobby is destined for extinction. Of course that's why everyone hates me.
I hate you because the *&($^(*%&(*&)(*$ Jets won at San Diego a couple of minutes ago...
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