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Old 03-22-2006, 12:53 PM   #13996
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I've always found changing the roll center by raising and lowering the pivot blocks to be a bigger (more noticeable) change than adjusting the camber links.
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:02 PM   #13997
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Anyone had any difficulty ordering from Schumacher USA?? As I'm struggling to get a response from them with an order I placed 10 days ago....
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:09 PM   #13998
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Quote:
How does the change in handling compare between just moving the top link and/just adjusting the roll centre with the spacers?


Skiddins,

The main difference (and there are many) is that by adjusting the camber link you vary the geometry. By that I mean that you can control the roll rate (longer v. shorter camber link) and the virtual rotational radius of the wheel is changed by the position (angle and length) of the camber link. This affects your camber rate as the chassis rolls or moves up/down. If you know how to plot the geometry of the suspension you can see how the RC position and length and angle of the camber links affect the geometry as the chassis rolls.

You will also see the STATIC and DYNAMIC RC. As the chassis moves (up/down, roll) the RC changes.

Spacers are a good and quick option but the main gain is more noticeable. When you use the spacers you vary the angle of the A-Arm and camber link. ...With the camber link you can vary many other aspects of the suspension geometry.

I would change the shock oil in the rear shocks to a lower viscosity in order to increase rear rebound. Increasing the rear rebound HELPS to gain more traction.
And again, try adjusting your wing. You may be able to achieve the right balance just by adding more down force in the rear (the downside is a sacrifice in in-line speed)
You may also want to INCREASE the length of the REAR camber links as that will help the rear weight transfer. The weight transition is slowed down if the camber link is increased.

You can also raise the hinge pin pivots by 1mm ....

If none of these suggestions work then you WILL have to work with the front suspension in order to decrease the traction.

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 03-22-2006 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Stupid mistake
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:15 PM   #13999
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Originally Posted by 2-Bad
Anyone had any difficulty ordering from Schumacher USA?? As I'm struggling to get a response from them with an order I placed 10 days ago....
That's very odd. How have you been trying to contact them? Give Adrian a call at 813-889-9691. He should be able to take care of you.
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:18 PM   #14000
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Originally Posted by Jon Kerr
That's very odd. How have you been trying to contact them? Give Adrian a call at 813-889-9691. He should be able to take care of you.
3 emails to either Adrian M and/or info Schumacher USA, and a PM to Adrain on here.....and yes I find it strange and now I'm very concern....
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:24 PM   #14001
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Originally Posted by 2-Bad
3 emails to either Adrian M and/or info Schumacher USA, and a PM to Adrain on here.....and yes I find it strange and now I'm very concern....
YGPM
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:34 PM   #14002
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Originally Posted by Jon Kerr
YGPM
right back at ya...
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Old 03-22-2006, 01:46 PM   #14003
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Originally Posted by seaball
yeah 189/190. also the rear toe is whatever the stock kit produces. i thought that was 2*?

Stock is about 1.2
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:16 PM   #14004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATT_MAN
Spacers are a good and quick option but the main gain is more noticeable. When you use the spacers you vary the angle of the A-Arm and camber link. BY adding spacers the chassis rolls easier (the moment arm is between the chassis and the hinge pin is greater), thus you gain traction...With the camber link you can vary many other aspects of the suspension geometry.

You can also raise the hinge pin pivots by 1mm ....

If none of these suggestions work then you WILL have to work with the front suspension in order to decrease the traction.

Battman, are you suggesting raising the rear roll centre to gain rear traction I agree with your other suggestions, but raising the rear hingepin mounts will not gain you rear traction or stability.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:29 PM   #14005
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Originally Posted by King-G
Battman, are you suggesting raising the rear roll centre to gain rear traction I agree with your other suggestions, but raising the rear hingepin mounts will not gain you rear traction or stability.
I agree. Normally when we raise the rear roll center by shimming the blocks up, it's to keep the rear end flatter and not transfer as much weight to the outside. Thus giving less traction and usually allowing the rear to flow better through the corner if the car is too stuck in the back end.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:37 PM   #14006
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yep, raising the rear hingepins (raising the rear R/C and reducing the rear roll moment) allows the rear to stay flatter in the turns and hence transfer less weight to the outside tire...In turn the car rotates more.

Its one of the most used tuning options for me on the Mi2 and now E.C..

with everything else in the ballpark (which the standard E.C setup is) I find adjusting the rear R/C for more or less rotation my main adjustment. With a little bit of droop change, and perhaps slight adjustment to front pin heights for more front end bite.

spring rates, oils etc have been spot on with the E.C...
only minor changes are needed from one track to another.
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:56 PM   #14007
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Yup, generally raising the rear pin mounts gives more rotation and "less" grip.

however, i have had it too low and it generates too much traction, but then gives way, so by raising them it gave more grip through the corner as it prevented the break away. If that makes sense!
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Old 03-22-2006, 03:56 PM   #14008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King-G
yep, raising the rear hingepins (raising the rear R/C and reducing the rear roll moment) allows the rear to stay flatter in the turns and hence transfer less weight to the outside tire...In turn the car rotates more.

Its one of the most used tuning options for me on the Mi2 and now E.C..

with everything else in the ballpark (which the standard E.C setup is) I find adjusting the rear R/C for more or less rotation my main adjustment. With a little bit of droop change, and perhaps slight adjustment to front pin heights for more front end bite.

spring rates, oils etc have been spot on with the E.C...
only minor changes are needed from one track to another.
Ok, do you change the upper links much or mainly use the roll centre's?

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Old 03-22-2006, 04:07 PM   #14009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattW
Yup, generally raising the rear pin mounts gives more rotation and "less" grip.

however, i have had it too low and it generates too much traction, but then gives way, so by raising them it gave more grip through the corner as it prevented the break away. If that makes sense!
Most adjustments have a point where they go too far. Same is true with spring rate. Generally speaking, a softer spring will give more grip. But there's a point where a car will "dump over" and suddenly loose grip when the rear springs are too soft. Also I ran into this last week in the front end. During practice, I went to a softer front spring to try and get more grip and it worked at first. But the grip came up a lot by the end of the night and I didn't have enough spring in the front to get it to react at all and the front of the car started to dump over and push badly.
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Old 03-22-2006, 04:09 PM   #14010
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Quote:
Battman, are you suggesting raising the rear roll centre to gain rear traction I agree with your other suggestions, but raising the rear hingepin mounts will not gain you rear traction or stability.
King-G, John Kerr:

You are correct...
What can I say, my hands were typing faster than my brain was thinking...

I apologize for that mistake... DAHHHHH...

Guys, I am recuperating from a large dosage of PAIN medication and my brain is still out there...
I am not joking....

I just read what I wrote and I could not believe that I said that... I actually wanted to explain what raising the hinge pins does and I went of the tangent on another issue, yet posting it, and with the wrong expanation....

Well, at least the other recommendations were right on...

Isaac

Last edited by BATT_MAN; 03-22-2006 at 04:39 PM.
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