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Old 03-23-2004, 07:29 PM   #31
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I'm not saying this to sound silly, but you bought matched packs, I'm not surprised the numbers were identical. As far as so many of the packs having the same numbers, that doesn't surprise me either because each company has a threshold level that a battery either makes it into such as "team spec" or "racer spec" so the hobby shop may have bought batteries from the same quality level.

I'm really not trying to defend anyone, just not surprised at what you found no matter what company the batteries were from. If you have a turbo matcher the best thing to do would be to put them on and test them for yourself. But I know in Orion's case they don't use the turbo matcher, I think they use lavco.

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Old 03-23-2004, 07:56 PM   #32
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I have never had packs all have the same numbers.

I know what a matched pack is, but never was all the batteries the same.
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Old 03-23-2004, 08:31 PM   #33
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I'd have to say in my experiance it's pretty rare to see six exact "clone" cells. I have seen it but it's rare. Especially to see two packs with all 12 cells identical in the same shop.

Personally, I think Orion makes quality products and if you're comfortable with their products you won't be disapointed. I've only owned one pack of Orions when the 3000's were pretty new still and they were one of the strongest packs of 3000's I ever had.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Smalls
The pack was still sealed instantly found its way to a CE TurboMatcher.

The run time was off by about 25 seconds. But the voltage, well I don't want to publicly bash a company but they were not close. If you would like the numbers they cycled to please PM me.

I like Team Orions products; I just think something is up with there matching system.

From the shop I purchased them from they had 5 packs of cells (four cell packs) 2 were 1.190 with 452 run time and 3 packs were 1.86 with 420 run time. Now every single cell read the same numbers. so out of 20 batteries matched from Orion in the case there were 12 reading identical numbers and 8 reading another number. I bought these to run at a regional race, while I was at the race I noticed another racer had a pack of 1.190's with 452 run time also. Why does this feel to much like a coincidence?
Smalls....Im not sticking up for Orion....I think the products they sell and the market share they have speaks for them... but you cant go and take cells that are matched on a LavCo matching system at 27amps then go run them through your Turbo matcher in your basement and expect to see the same numbers. Like others have said Orion goes through so many cells it would make most of our heads spin. And for them to get cells that are so close to one another in a pack just goes to show how close they match everything. The last Orion packs that I had were 2000's but they were some of the best ones that I ever had. I doubt that they are just making numbers up. And unless you are in the exact same room with the exact same machine that matches the cells you using them on your own matcher is not going to provide you with anything other then a reference. Also Turbo matchers can easily go in and out of working spec if you look at them wrong so who's to say that your matcher is at 100%. Im not trying to slam you in any way Im just saying that you cant compare the way Orion matches its cells to you throwing them on a matcher in your basement.....its not even on the same machine type....or who knows about the temp the room is at when they are done. There is a system to matching cells and every company out there goes through great lengths to make sure everything is consistent from cycle to cycle. So I don't think Orion is selling junk they just go through so many more that they can get cells that are grouped so close together.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:38 PM   #35
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Racer OZ-(and others)

Its rair to have every perameter, the same. Usually the 1000th will be different on either the Peak voltage, or the average voltage. (depending on what the matcher decides to have turbo label place on the label)

For people that do not know, the data from the CE matchers is fed through a computer program called "Turbo Label" this program made by CE sorts the data, (user selectable) and places it in the print part of the program

I heard that Orion did switch over to CE,maybe Rick, if still around could confirm this, or explain what he means by using both.

Someone also made a comment about .85V vs .90V

It does make quite a difference, I will see If I still have the data from a Test Danny published on another forum quite awhile ago.

He ran 50 cells at .90V and then again with .85V the results speak for themself.

On the CE you can set where the machine stops reading voltage. The default and the norm for all honest matchers, (most of them still out their) is 5000 seconds which means the cell is read right to the .90V


Some matchers (most are not around anymore) tried manipulating the cells by adjusting the voltage. they used anywhere from 300-360 seconds. this stops reading the voltage while it is still quite high, the average is then calculated and the result is a high average voltage.

the rule of thumb is if it looks to good to be true it most likely is. But, Like I said their are not many of these matchers left. so its pretty easy to spot for the educated buyer.

I personally love the fact that CE chargers are quickly becoming the norm, Packs are quickly going the way of the motor, even though a manufacturer dyno's a motor, as soon a person buys one, it is one either his or his friends dyno to check and then tune. people don't think twice about testing and tuning motors, and more and more we are finding racers are doing the same with packs, build it and cycle it.... The GFX is the truth teller

if its around 7.00V+ you know your cells work out to 1.17+ and your good to go.
runtime will drop off a bit but voltage if taken care of will always be their, if not better.

A true 1.19+ should cycle out to over 7.15 volts. @ 30 amps with a cut off 5.40V on a GFX

Recently Most large championships have honestly been won with packs in the range of 7.05V to 7.11V ( Novak race, Snowbirds, Holloween Classic etc etc)

The nice thing is packs like those are available to the public


Korgae

The GFX easily confirms if you got what you payed for
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:47 PM   #36
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Korgae, so which batteries should I buy?

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Old 03-23-2004, 11:02 PM   #37
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Buy what ever you feel comfortable buying.

if your expecting me to tell you to buy our suff, I wont. we let our track results, and customer feedback speak for us. we don't need to twist anyones arm to make sales.

who ever you trust is who is right for you.

It could be us or TQ, Kinetics, New Wave or Fantom..or any other matcher

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Old 03-23-2004, 11:10 PM   #38
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I wasn't expecting anything but your honest opinion. I don't even know what batteries you represent, but it sounds like you have checked out and tested several different manufacturers. Based on your experience, if you were walking into a hobby shop which batteries would you buy?

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Old 03-23-2004, 11:23 PM   #39
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Look in his sig.

Whatever batteries you buy you will probably be happy with them. SMC, ORION, FUKUYAMA, ZXracing, Promatch and some others, stick with the well known matchers and there is a very good chance you'll be happy with what you get. Most of the guys at my local track run SMC's, promatched and Fuku's but I'm seen most of the ones out there on the track and they are all very fast. I run Zx cells becuase I like the price and the service, others run fuku's for the same reason, others Smc. You really can't go wrong.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:27 PM   #40
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He works for SMC....

Doesn't SMC do all of Fantom matching?


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Old 03-23-2004, 11:39 PM   #41
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Why bother with all these funny companies and their strange batteries, just buy GP cells!
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:08 AM   #42
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Korgae, if you work for smc you may be able to answer a question I have not gotten answered yet. How long can you store the GP cells at .90 volts without damaging them?

Thanks!

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Old 03-24-2004, 06:52 AM   #43
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Strange how we just can get one standard for batteries when it comes to matching.

I like both ZX Racing and Promatch cells. Only thing is Pro-match the last time I checked is still suggesting to store your packs with charge on them. I did this with all my cells from them and they easily lost runtime.

After speaking with Big Jim on integy's forum , I have been discharging my packs and equalizing them on a Octane 2 tray. My promatch sport packs actually have regained some of there runtime, maybe because one was peaking out first before the others but I am back up to at least 2900mah instead of down in the 2400s and 2500s .

With my ZX Racing matched packs, they easily do about 3900mah charges and they seem to have even more voltage now than the first time I ran them. The tray method works quite well.
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:21 AM   #44
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Racer Oz-

Yes, I work for SMC, I also headed up a battery company before Danny & Jack asked me to join them. I didn't want to turn my post into a ad for us. It's a fine line when you are a company rep... I just wanted to offer my knowledge and opinion.

as for storing- we recommend to our users that they either store them Dead Shorted. ( if you run Stock or 19 turn) or simply discharge @ 30 amps to 5.40V and leave them. (for Mod) before you run your pack again place it on your tray for around 5-10 minutes then charge. We strongly recommend the Indy Reactor 30 for discharging ( if you do not have a CE Turbo charger) For the the Indy Octane 2 20 amp tray is what we use.

As for how long, I do not know. I know we have cycled packs that have been DS'ed for 3 months and they are still strong. but we have not done tests longer then that. I would guess that they would be okay for a longer period of time

If you have any more questions, then I would be more then happy to answer them in Our tech forum ( on this site)

As for what I would buy: Well because I see the hard work that goes into each SMC cell and the fact that Danny is a perfectionist, my choice is simple.

but with that said, I have many "pro" and "semi Pro" racer friends and at the races they all don't run our stuff. So its clear that other's have also figured it out

I really think it comes down to the level of racer you are, and who you trust and feel comfortable with. If SMC wasn't around, and I wasn't in the industry I would go with what works at my local track or what has the best positive feed back from racers If you hear a lot of good things about a company then its a good indication that they are fair and honest.

One thing I would do for sure is buy a good charger and test everything I built. you have to, to really know what you got.

Someone mentioned that you can not compare CE machines meaning you can not purchase cells and simple flip a T4 on and run a cycle. and I agree with that.

Cells are very sensitive with temp. we all know ( at least I preach it) that you have to run your cells hot to get Voltage. well it is the same with matching. Matchers have a controlled environment that stays the same all the time. ( well most good ones do)

so if a LHS has a matcher and simply turns it one and throws cell's on it, then the #'s will or could be off. the machine would require a "warm up Cycle" then the cell would have to be "stable" meaning the cell can not be completely cold. To make a cell temp stable can take a few days so if the shop is slightly below room temp all the time then the cell will never be stable . its complicated.

and that is why I strongly recommend a GFX or Turbo 30,35. Trust me you get what you pay for. It's way easier to test on the GFX then try to fuss with the matchers.

build your pack, let it sit a few hours cycle it on your GFX ( keep the pack in the box while charging and cycling) and read the results.


its pretty simple to see what you bought, and it will give you piece of mind as well. Our roots are in Oval and really that is where our name and image came from, the Oval guys are insane and need every little bit of performance and Pull ( voltage) if you pick a company that has excelled on the Oval scene you can't go wrong.

Man I could go on and on..


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Old 03-24-2004, 10:22 AM   #45
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What you're saying about the temp is so true. Being sponsored by Fukuyama, I had a chance to go to one of their facilities and they keep it a very constant and WARM temperature in there. And from what I've seen even witht he Turbo 35 testing, the numbers aren't going to match the labels after it's been built and there's aligator clips, solder joints, wire, all sucking up power. What you need to do is check them when they're new, note where they're at on that machine, and from time to time check them with the same machine to compare where they currently are.
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