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Old 01-04-2010, 01:09 PM   #16
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Since these SC are so user smart now, and virtually every one of the big companies makes one, why can't they do the following.

All the involved SC makers come up with a "Spec" profile, one that doesn't give an advantage of one over another, and all agreed upon by said makers. This profile would be the chosen profile for any of the big races that are held. This profile would be a "write only" program with locked parameters, once loaded, it could be checked either via a computer or a combination of flashing leds on the SC.

You go to a big race and you run that profile, you go home and open your SC programing back up, or if your club wants they run the "spec program". Everyone pretty much has new SC anyways so your not out a bunch of cash on the SC of the week deal.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:10 PM   #17
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This situation is transient. Within a couple of years, we will all be at the same level. Novak Two has the right idea, and anyone who thinks they can tech this stuff doesn't! These suggestions come from people who don't organise events or Clubs.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:18 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by wyd View Post
This is very true. Hey lets face it only about 15% of the people that by R/C actually race. The biggest part of the market isn't racing and is just a tiny part of the market. Backyard bashers and weekend warriors out with their buddies is a way larger part than racing will ever be.
I agree. But for LHS, Track Owners or Series Directors who wish to attract new customers (participants), the availability of affordable (easy to use) racing products can offer them an attractive, budget-friendly option.

Many members of this forum are experienced racers, who have invested many $$s in high-end competition racing equipment over the years. Once they have made that investment, there is no more interest in leveling the playing field---the more unlevel, the better.

So, I'm talking about products aimed at new customers or racers returning to the hobby after not participating for a few years ("returners"). I have read threads on many different R/C forums decrying the expense and confusion of all this new technology, but no solutions---or or even workable suggestions.

Novak has been designing and manufacturing electronics for over 30 years; we have seen many ups and downs in this industry. So, it is time to stop the complaining; let's start discussing possible solutions
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
My suggestion is for entry-level (probably local racing) where teching escs to dis-allow any PC programmable timing or resident fixed timing is not feasible; there is no piece of equipment available currently to check for timing advance in escs. This suggestion is offered to allow this hobby to grow and keep costs down for new racers/customers.

R/C manufacturers cannot stay in business by stealing the same customers away from competitors (by offering fancier, more complex escs); we need new racers getting interested in the hobby. We need affordable products to attract budget-conscious folks who just want to have fun.

We will be soon be adding a new feature to our BL ESC Service Option Program. We will allow Novak customers the option of exchanging among all of our BL controllers. Therefore, a customer who wishes to compete initially in the EL events can (later) exchange his controller for a racing esc.

This should remove some of the racer's unwillingness to invest in a spec speed control. But, maybe he will realize that controlled, spec racing is more fun than getting involved in the "speed controller/PC upgrade of the week" frenzy------
I have been and probably will continue to be against any equipment being illegal (as long as it fits in the rules), specifically speaking of timing advance technology in ESC’s. However, I tested Tekin’s new software this weekend…and WOW! It made my 17.5 extremely fast. Also the software itself is a little complex…not difficult to use but definitely not plug and play. And while I was hovered over my laptop, I heard some others making comments on how fast things were becoming. Then I thought about what I would do if I was a newbie again? The answer was…I don’t know?!

I have to agree with what NovakTwo has suggested. Although Novak is the only company offering a product like he suggested, so his post may come off as a little self serving. But, after giving it some thought about “what would I do if I was a newbie?”…the answer is buy a Havoc.


I don’t have the answers and I don’t think any of us do. But I would love to see a Tekin come out with a comparable ESC to the Havoc. But for the price you cannot beat what Novak can give you. The only issue I have is as your skills improve you are stuck with a “lesser” ESC. Then the cost savings doesn’t mean a whole lot. The trade in program is nice, and provides some customer stickiness, but it would be easier just to upgrade software and not have to send anything in at all. I think it would be just as good, if not better, if Novak had a no timing option for the Kinetic. For me that would be the better option for someone who really wanted to get into racing.


To the OP...

As far as capping ESC cost for some classes…it may be a way to curb technology advances. But I am not sure capping prices with ensure we all will get a chance to run the best ESC’s. I think if AE had cheaper manufacturing cost and better distribution maybe their ESC wouldn’t cost $350+ and it would be more available. I think the future is companies will just offer software to make things faster. My RS is a hell of a lot faster than it was when I bought it almost 2 years ago, and that has cost me $0.00.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:13 PM   #20
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One other thing that I have not mentioned is the potential damage to electronics (and vehicles) that has accompanied the introduction of the advanced timing options.

We have seen many more motors with the stator windings burnt and the rotors demagnetized from the improper use of the timing adjustments. Many beginning racers have neither the budget nor the patience to deal with this additional damage.

We changed our motor warranty policy to account for this new kind of damage. And, we designed our new motor so that both the stator and rotor could be replaced by the racer.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:21 PM   #21
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No roar should not put a price cap on esc's, if your track or your local racers have issues, then deal with them on a local level, and even if roar does put a price cap on a esc, local roar tracks have the option to ignore that rule if they wish so once again whats the point.

If and when you attend Roar regional or Roar national you should expect to be up against the best, the best drivers, the best chassis, the best equipment. Is spending 350 -400 bucks for .2 tenths a lap a waste, i don't know, was switching from 3300's to 3800's to 4200's to 4600's a waste, was switching from that 20c lipo to a 40c lipo a waste. the equipment is not the problem, the price your willing to pay for it is.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:22 PM   #22
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:38 PM   #23
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This is all nonsense to me.

Buy a programmable speed control use an older software on it that isn't "TOO" fast for a newbie and when you are ready to move up just update the darn program for FREE!

Stop with all the "speed controls are too expensive" Brushless was supposed to SAVE racing, we gave up special brushes, tuning springs, $200 com lathes, $700 dynos, $300 magnet zappers etc etc etc and the company that pushed for and regulated how brushless was to be introduced to R/C racing with NO limit to motor timing or degrees of programming now wants a level playing field. Whatever!
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
My suggestion is for entry-level (probably local racing) where teching escs to dis-allow any PC programmable timing or resident fixed timing is not feasible; there is no piece of equipment available currently to check for timing advance in escs. This suggestion is offered to allow this hobby to grow and keep costs down for new racers/customers.

R/C manufacturers cannot stay in business by stealing the same customers away from competitors (by offering fancier, more complex escs); we need new racers getting interested in the hobby. We need affordable products to attract budget-conscious folks who just want to have fun.

We will be soon be adding a new feature to our BL ESC Service Option Program. We will allow Novak customers the option of exchanging among all of our BL controllers. Therefore, a customer who wishes to compete initially in the EL events can (later) exchange his controller for a racing esc.

This should remove some of the racer's unwillingness to invest in a spec speed control. But, maybe he will realize that controlled, spec racing is more fun than getting involved in the "speed controller/PC upgrade of the week" frenzy------
as far as I 've seen the Entry level class never won by available horse power/ESC. (except for the Oval which I never raced but I can imagine same for a entree class) let the manfactures compete for our business and we will choose one to buy with in our budget.

Last edited by SweepRacingUSA; 01-04-2010 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #25
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What could possibly be more affordable than purchasing a speed control nearly 2...Yes 2 years ago that was less than $200U.S. and with simple free programing is still at the top of the game? As far as newbs are concerned absolutely point them in this direction! I have all the confidence in the world recommending a programmable, free to update speed control to any person that wants to start R/C racing today, tomorrow whenever..... I have seen too many times someone trying to save money by purchasing a cheaper servo or charger or even speed control only to be very disappointed soon after and realized they should have purchased the PROPER equipment in the first place.
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:33 PM   #26
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LOL whats up with all these restrictions !!!
Make the lanes Narrower add more turns, where it is impossible to blast it full throttle xD
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:48 PM   #27
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I think it is a complete nonsense to use US dollar as part of ROAR rules. Are you kidding? Is the $$ amount adjusted by inflation and currency trading ratios?

Do you know that the current $$ limit on brushless motor is $149 (Tell me if I am wrong.)? With such money you can get a Super motor and the esc, I think, dosn't matter that much any more.

Why don't they use maximum load of motors as the only criterion and limit voltage to 2 lipo cells. Get rid of the battery section from ROAR rules (it would make packs cheaper for us too!).

If you want to use $1000 lipo and $1000 motor and $1000 ESC, go ahead but it dosn't matter as your motor is limited to let say 150W stock class on the max allowable battery voltage. If you want to make a jump to mod class, keep you $1000 lipo and $1000 esc and simply swap the motor.

That way you can run any esc, any pack with a legal motor. Can you imagine how much more affordable it would become and how easy it would be to enter stock class races?

I am talking about entry level classes but mod class could take a similar approach with a motor load limit of 1kw if dedired. LOL.

Last edited by ozvena; 01-04-2010 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Since these SC are so user smart now, and virtually every one of the big companies makes one, why can't they do the following.

All the involved SC makers come up with a "Spec" profile, one that doesn't give an advantage of one over another, and all agreed upon by said makers. This profile would be the chosen profile for any of the big races that are held. This profile would be a "write only" program with locked parameters, once loaded, it could be checked either via a computer or a combination of flashing leds on the SC.

You go to a big race and you run that profile, you go home and open your SC programing back up, or if your club wants they run the "spec program". Everyone pretty much has new SC anyways so your not out a bunch of cash on the SC of the week deal.
One big loophole there.

It wouldn't take much for someone who is skilled with computer programming languages to go into the firmware of the ESC and change the parameters of their software, make one of the adjustable profiles have that particular flashing light combo, or have that particular "symbol" for lack of a better term to show the computer when it is checked.

You mention that this generation of speed controls being "User Smart". That could be the huge wrench in the plans to make a truly "spec" class.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:09 PM   #29
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Stop with all the "speed controls are too expensive" Brushless was supposed to SAVE racing, we gave up special brushes, tuning springs, $200 com lathes, $700 dynos, $300 magnet zappers etc etc etc and the company that pushed for and regulated how brushless was to be introduced to R/C racing with NO limit to motor timing or degrees of programming now wants a level playing field. Whatever!
Well, back then we did not have big homes, big cars, many RC stuff, etc. Now we want it all and double the size and number.

But seriously, this argument is used over and over and I do not see the point being made.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:09 PM   #30
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Yeah if you make anything flash able its always hackable so called.
AND
Don't start with saying them trying to make it secure or put safety procortions in there. If its flash able its hackable, bottom line.

Look at sony and the PSP 1st 2nd 3rd gen and the PSPgo are all hackable.
Next one would be iPhone 2G 3G 3Gs all hackable.
Those are richer companies with more resources. They Failed.

LETS JUST RACE AND HAVE FUN DAMMIT
ADD MORE TURNS NARROW THE LANES ADD ELEVATIONS LOTS OF IT !
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