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Old 01-07-2010, 06:58 AM   #76
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Here is what are going to be the "classic" Rules as far as what is the current rule set which will be eliminated in Sept 2010 for motors:

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Motor Specifications:
Option 1: 27-turn ROAR stock motor: No FDR limit, bearings are not allowed.

Option 2: 17.5 brushless: Motor timing advance is allowed. 12.5 mm rotor diameter maximum (no "tuning" rotors are allowed).

Option 3: 21.5 brushless with 2C LiPo: Novak SS21.5 Pro brushless motor (pn:3421)or Ballistic 21.5 (pn:3621) ONLY combined with any ROAR-approved hard-cased 2C 7.4v LiPo pack up to and including 5000 mAh capacity. Novak motor is the ONLY motor allowed at this time. All house track rules regarding LiPo usage apply. Final drive ratio is to not exceed 4.2. Motor timing advance is allowed. 12.5 mm rotor diameter maximum (no "tuning" rotors are allowed).

Battery Specifications:
4 cell NiCd or NiMh batteries, 4600 mAh limit
2 cell ROAR-approved LiPo hard cased, 5000 mAh limit (21.5 brushless motor option ONLY)
The track that I mainly run VTA at is going to run both sets of rules. So I may just pickup both and let my daughter run the slower stuff. Its a tight track, so it wouldn't shock me if I could get lap times close.
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:16 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by xevias View Post
It's a valuable thread because some tracks aren't going to adopt the new rules. This thread can become a good resource for track directors trying to understand how to run a VTA class with LiPo/21.5/programable ESCs.
I disagree in its value. Tracks have been using their own rules long before this thread was started.
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Old 01-07-2010, 10:33 PM   #78
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Now I am absolutely no expert on this. I am new to VTA (I just built my car and am waiting on batteries to run). I have watched for several weeks and talked to a lot of my local clubs racers before deciding to purchase my equipment. Every one I talked too said go with the 21.5/lipo combo. The guys running 4 cell were saying that they were out powered by the lipo guys. Some have tried, with great success, 5 cell NiMH to help level off the playing field.
I believe the new rules are good and bad. Good part is for the new racer wanting in and has a lot of decisions made up for them. This in turn keeps the over all cost down. They also keep the racing close and the winners decided on by skill. Bad part is people like myself just spent lot of money on new equipment that can't be used next year thus making an affordable race class expensive. However it is almost too late for these kinds of limitations.
The easiest way to add rules and keep cost down would be to say no boost or timing adjusting via esc and up the NiMH cell count to 5 cells with no mah limit. That way people who want or need to run NiMH batteries can do so inexpensively. Also open the motor and esc option up to any manufacturer. As it sits right now it looks to be a class run by Novak disguised as an impartial sanctioning body, but thats just me.
LiPo batteries are cheaper to own and maintain then NiMH. Any experienced racer will tell you this. NiMH need lots of maintenance and TLC. I've seen thousands of dollars invested in NiMH batteries and their chargers, power supplies, discharges, battery conditioners and the shear volume of them needed to run on race day. Hell who says that the stock 27 turn motors are cheap. They can run upwards of $50 themselves. Add that to the cost of a good brushed esc.
These adjustments to the rules should keep more people happy then the new rules do. But we all know that we can't make everyone happy. Somebody is always going to complain.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:05 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Terra Rover View Post
Also open the motor and esc option up to any manufacturer. As it sits right now it looks to be a class run by Novak disguised as an impartial sanctioning body, but thats just me.
LiPo batteries are cheaper to own and maintain then NiMH. Any experienced racer will tell you this. NiMH need lots of maintenance and TLC. I've seen thousands of dollars invested in NiMH batteries and their chargers, power supplies, discharges, battery conditioners and the shear volume of them needed to run on race day. Hell who says that the stock 27 turn motors are cheap. They can run upwards of $50 themselves. Add that to the cost of a good brushed esc.
These adjustments to the rules should keep more people happy then the new rules do. But we all know that we can't make everyone happy. Somebody is always going to complain.
I'm kinda liking this guy - lol

There is truelly a small group running the masses. The Class could be slowed down - no arguements there.

There was a comparison to Nascar, one of the guys made. It was totally off base!! LMAO It was funny as hell!!

It wouldn't be as big today if they didn't have such a manufacture war in the earlier days. The Old saying used to be: "What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday."

Since the COT rules were implemented, There has been a drop in attendance by crowds. Restrictor plate racing has become a bore to watch and has been nothing but wrecks.

In addition, nothing about the newer cars make people want to buy that model of car since they can't buy it at the show room.

There was also a comparison to Indy car. Another joke!! The class has had nothing but problems since the late 70's/80's.

I like the class, but foresee it dying off and becoming a local class only with local rules.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:23 PM   #80
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Since the COT rules were implemented, There has been a drop in attendance by crowds. Restrictor plate racing has become a bore to watch and has been nothing but wrecks.
Attendance was declining BEFORE COT...look it up. Viewership on TV was down too. Can you say "Oversaturation"? "Restrictor plate racing" has probably been around since before you were born, has been there through the rise AND now the decline of NASCAR popularity.

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In addition, nothing about the newer cars make people want to buy that model of car since they can't buy it at the show room. .
If you think you could buy the "older" (pre-COT) cars or anything on them off the show room I've got some ocean-view property in Nebraska I'd like to sell you.

The POINT to the comparison was that NASCAR doesn't take a vote on rules changes. Ever. And it is 100% THE biggest form of motorsport in the USA. And that Formula One is the biggest form of motorsport in the entire world, and they take exactly as many "votes" on rules changes. Yup, never.

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There was also a comparison to Indy car. Another joke!! The class has had nothing but problems since the late 70's/80's.
The "comparison" was exactly your point...Indy Car/CART has been a disaster, largely because owners were making the rules, voting self-interest ahead of what was right for "the show", etc. Along with ONE track owner (Indy, go figure) making unreasonable demands.
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:43 AM   #81
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1) Ferarri has been influencing FIA rules for 40 years - go ask David Hobbs about that.

2) Don't forget what happened last F1 season. Most of the major manufactures started their own organization and planned to quit the FIA over disagreements in new rules for 2010. The FIA backed down to keep the teams in Formula 1.

3) Who gives a damn - the business models are different. Comparing real race series to RC racing is like comparing the NFL to this:
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:57 AM   #82
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LOL .. somewhat of a good point.

However, in restrictor plate racing, it was designed for everything is 'closer' & 'safer' racing. Now the racers complain about it and the fans now mainly watch those events waiting for the crashes. It really isn't a 'Good' race. There are a few similarities there.

All Hail, the 'VTA Ceaser'
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:26 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xevias View Post
1) Ferarri has been influencing FIA rules for 40 years - go ask David Hobbs about that.]
Kinda seems to argue against the prevailing "point" folks are trying to make, that a very few in USVTA seem to have influence over the rules adjustments, etc, but hey...if that's the argument you want to make...

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Originally Posted by xevias View Post
2) Don't forget what happened last F1 season. Most of the major manufactures started their own organization and planned to quit the FIA over disagreements in new rules for 2010. The FIA backed down to keep the teams in Formula 1.]
LOL...fell into the trap, didn't you.

WHAT did the F-1 teams threaten to leave over? COST CONTAINMENT!! The F-1 wanted to create specific expenditure limits, the teams objected to those limits and felt it was important enough to bail over. Kind of exactly the opposite of what we have in USVTA (supposedly). The "teams" are whining that having to buy (MAYBE) a less fully-functioned esc and motor are going to break them and keep them out of racing.


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Originally Posted by xevias View Post
3) Who gives a damn - the business models are different. Comparing real race series to RC racing is like comparing the NFL to this:
I'd disagree...racing is, pretty much, racing. I've done both. But we all get an opinion.

That said, if your RC racing isn't any closer to "real" racing than "vibro-football" is to NFL then I'd suggest your group might be better suited to SINGLE cell / 25.5. I've seen those "vibro-football" folks race...most folks call it "Novice Class". Put 'em on the grid, sound the buzzer, and off they go in whatever direction they happen to be aimed in when the trigger is pulled.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post

That said, if your RC racing isn't any closer to "real" racing than "vibro-football" is to NFL then I'd suggest your group might be better suited to SINGLE cell / 25.5. I've seen those "vibro-football" folks race...most folks call it "Novice Class". Put 'em on the grid, sound the buzzer, and off they go in whatever direction they happen to be aimed in when the trigger is pulled.
WOW I actually had to laugh at this one. Not saying you are wrong but have definately seen that in action before.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:38 AM   #85
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I'm just providing an alternate viewpoint from your own - no reason to insult my club's collective driving skill. That was mean.

My point is that league authorities and participants in every successful activity (professional or amateur) work together to establish an effective rules system. If the rules package slants in one direction, you will hear complaints. Right now the complaints are about money, but in September they might increase to include racing quality from non-A main drivers.

This comes up because the USVTA only got A main drivers to test the proposed equipment. B and C main guys should have also been involved.

Most A main drivers are willing to spend cash on racing and are more likely to max out their car's potential. The other 75% or so drivers in the B and C mains aren't as likely to spend more money - they just want to have a bit of fun while staying within their means. And these changes might make them even less competitive if they do spend the additional cash. This leads to frustration and lost racers to other classes.

Somebody should have tapped into the perspectives of the novice VTA racer.* The lower skilled, less funded drivers should have gotten a "vote." Or a lobbyist.

* If they did, my apologies. What was their feedback and how did their lap times change with the 25.5 motor?
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Old 01-10-2010, 11:38 AM   #86
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It dont pay to argue anymore with the USVTA. They are not a demorcratic group but run it more like a dictatorship.
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:54 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by 7 celler View Post
It dont pay to argue anymore with the USVTA. They are not a demorcratic group but run it more like a dictatorship.
No-one is ever allowed to have a different view point from certain USVTA 'Elite' members.
Ever notice how there is never a constructive conversation? It always ends up with a 'VTA Ceaser' trying to slam someone.

If people don't agree with a thread, then stay off of it. How simple is that?


Hopefully this thread will get back on track allowing, and organizing people and clubs the option to run a 'Classic' set of rules without further disruption.



Darkside, I wish we were closer to come race. The event sounds awesome!! Good luck!!
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:29 PM   #88
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heh, u gotta have a vintage version of the vintage class. good grief.

no1 is allowed to have a pt? c'mon. Where were u guys when roar came in with its big ass falice and swung it around and knocked every1 outta the class with its 'version' of vintage?

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Old 01-10-2010, 05:24 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Spdjunky View Post
No-one is ever allowed to have a different view point from certain USVTA 'Elite' members.
Ever notice how there is never a constructive conversation? It always ends up with a 'VTA Ceaser' trying to slam someone.
I know, I know...it sure can be frustrating when someone brings facts to rebut inaccurate information and/or emotional arguments. Then it's REALLY a pisser when those folks won't call people names and stuff, right?

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If people don't agree with a thread, then stay off of it. How simple is that?
Wait a minute...I'm trying to grock this. IN ONE POST you complain that "no-one is ever allowed a different view point" and then it's "If people don't agree with a thread, then stay off.". Correct me if I'm mistaken...

Best of luck.
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Old 01-10-2010, 05:29 PM   #90
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Why hasn't anyone thrown out there 1S Lipo. This would truly slow things down and the batteries are cheaper

Aside from having to add a ton of weight I think this could be a viable solution and than we don't have to worry about the ESC issue.
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