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Old 01-02-2010, 07:40 AM   #31
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Well right now I am at 108/47 for a 4.21 fdr with the smallest spur losi made. For a 3.6 the best I could do is 108/54 for a 3.66 and I don't know if the 54 will fit. It seems like this is going away from the intent of the class to keep older cars competetive. Might have to try a spur adaptor if I can find one but I didn't really hear good things.
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:46 AM   #32
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Man...I'm stuttering lately. Duplicate post
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Old 01-02-2010, 07:53 AM   #33
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I also don't want to see an outright competition with the VTA.
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you do when you propose a class that is generally very similar but ultimately not in line with. Like it or not, that is competition. Not saying it's right or wrong, just stating the fact.

As far as the XXX-S, I really don't know much about them myself but there are a couple people I'll be racing with this weekend who do. Will it do sub-4 FDR on the spec tire? I don't know, and they might not either. What I WILL say is that the 3.6 number given as an example is by no means a hard number. As someone indicated earlier, when the limit was 4.2 it seems like most people were running in the high 4's and declaring that to be optimized. That being said I can't imagine going down 1 "step" on the motors would require going down a full number (or more) in FDR. When I say 1 "step" I mean that going from 21.5 to 25.5 is the same difference as going from, say 17.5 to 21.5 or from 13.5 to 17.5. I DO have experience with the latter and would say that I'm not increasing my gearing by anything CLOSE to the 20-25% that is being suggested.

We'll know a LOT more about appropriate FDR's when folks start doing more testing on the 25.5's. As I found when I was testing 1s combos, there's a big difference between the "optimum" gearing for best lap times when I'm alone on the track and what gearing is appropriate in the cut and thrust of a racing situation. Usually the "best lap time" gearing requires too much sweeping of the curves and would invite someone to barge up the inside if you were doing so in a racing situation, combined with the situation if you DO get off-line the lap time gets killed because there's no bottom-end acceleration.
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
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I also don't want to see an outright competition with the VTA.
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Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
Unfortunately, that's exactly what you do when you propose a class that is generally very similar but ultimately not in line with. Like it or not, that is competition. Not saying it's right or wrong, just stating the fact.
but isn't that just what VTA was to the previous TC classes when it started, and with the new TA rules changes it surely is now?
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:45 AM   #35
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I just bought a TC5 to get into the VTA class but I am in need of some good used or like new bodies and good rims and tires. Shoot me a pm with pics and prices if anybody has any for sale.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:10 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spdjunky View Post
Gearing isn't a total deal breaker either way. Gearing choices do get smaller when you run a smaller
spur and larger pinion though. One tooth change will be a lot.
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same FDR neighborhood (what you would realistically be looking at were you contemplating making a
change on your car)
84/49*2.17=3.72
84/50*2.17=3.65

Which yields a difference of 0.07 for that 1 tooth change
(and a 2% gearing change)

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Originally Posted by gacjr0 View Post
So the original assertion that one pinion tooth change at high FDR (supposed to be LOW FDR, I was thinking of high rollout) will be a lot is done for.
Well, not really if you think about it.

Memory problems much?You show that at low FDR one tooth makes a very small gear ratio change then write not really?

Keep in mind that at what used to be more normal FDRs like:
84/21*2.17=8.68
84/22*2.17=8.285
yields 0.365 delta ratio (a 4% change)

I do concede that when comparing larger vs smaller spurs and using appropriate pinions to arrive at same ratios, the change in ratio from one pinion to another will be larger, but at the low FDRs we're looking at, the tendency towards small delta is dominant, and I accept your apology.
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Old 01-02-2010, 05:12 PM   #37
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The problem with the xxx-s is the belt pulley is built into the spur gear. I already have the smallest one losi made so unfortunately going to an extremely low fdr if need be is going to be difficult for some cars. If there is an easy solution to this I am all ears but like I said earlier I got mixed reviews on the spur adaptor.
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:01 PM   #38
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Posted in that London Ontario thread....

"I'll sell it all and take up kite flying"

I cannot tell you how many times this exact thought passes through my head
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:53 PM   #39
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For this "Classic" VTA class discussion, I was curious if this could be something that is inclusive of other manufacturers as well? out here we run VTA style rules with freedom of choice on motor manufacturer. from what I can tell, teh ballistic is still VERY popular motor to run and does excellent.

So something like say a "Pro" VTA?
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:02 PM   #40
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Posted in that London Ontario thread....

"I'll sell it all and take up kite flying"

I cannot tell you how many times this exact thought passes through my head
Kites are lame
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:24 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
What I WILL say is that the 3.6 number given as an example is by no means a hard number.
It is possible that an appropriate FDR could reach 3.4 on larger tracks. I think the point of contention is that only certain car manufactures can hit that mark. IF 3.6-3.4 turns out to be optimal at some tracks, how do they compete?

An FDR limit to the new rules might have to be investigated after researching what popular cars can physically handle for spurs and pinions to maintain parity.

Without changing boost on my RS (no Turbo), I currently move from 4.4 FDR to 5.4 week to week. It would suck for the new rules to possibly foster a "Gear War."
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:50 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
For this "Classic" VTA class discussion, I was curious if this could be something that is inclusive of other manufacturers as well? out here we run VTA style rules with freedom of choice on motor manufacturer. from what I can tell, teh ballistic is still VERY popular motor to run and does excellent.

So something like say a "Pro" VTA?
Cain,

You also make some good points as do some other people. I've heard hearsay that a lot of people are on the fence about the slower motor change. There are also other issues out there that really need to be addressed that I don't feel haven't been thoroughly.

So in essence, Shoot holes in the theory a 'Classic' or 'Pro' VTA class shouldn't be available. Or provide reasons why we should have it. It's a challange!

This is a platform to speak openly, rather than be muffled by the few. Those of you that race at different clubs, what does a MAJORITY of the people want at those tracks?
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenman73 View Post
The problem with the xxx-s is the belt pulley is built into the spur gear. I already have the smallest one losi made so unfortunately going to an extremely low fdr if need be is going to be difficult for some cars. If there is an easy solution to this I am all ears but like I said earlier I got mixed reviews on the spur adaptor.
I was aware of the gearing issue with the XXXS and the limited gearing parts. I ran across an adapter in my day and I'll have to dig it up.

As many XXXS cars that are around, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Losi offered an RTR VTA car if it used a motor they offered in the Xeleron system.

That would be a super way to get people into it with new equipement with warranties. Maybe a stand alone rule that said 'they could run an RTR motor in club races, but it wouldn't be allowed in National events' etc. That would be a huge door to open for the class. There are a lot of older Hobby shops that still stock the parts for them also.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:02 PM   #44
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I was aware of the gearing issue with the XXXS and the limited gearing parts. I ran across an adapter in my day and I'll have to dig it up.

As many XXXS cars that are around, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Losi offered an RTR VTA car if it used a motor they offered in the Xeleron system.

That would be a super way to get people into it with new equipement with warranties. Maybe a stand alone rule that said 'they could run an RTR motor in club races, but it wouldn't be allowed in National events' etc. That would be a huge door to open for the class. There are a lot of older Hobby shops that still stock the parts for them also.
If a set of rules with the VTA class did allow a motor clause like that, I would be more than willing to shake a few limbs over at Losi/Horizon persuing such a venture.
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:45 AM   #45
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Cain,

You also make some good points as do some other people. I've heard hearsay that a lot of people are on the fence about the slower motor change. There are also other issues out there that really need to be addressed that I don't feel haven't been thoroughly.

So in essence, Shoot holes in the theory a 'Classic' or 'Pro' VTA class shouldn't be available. Or provide reasons why we should have it. It's a challange!

This is a platform to speak openly, rather than be muffled by the few. Those of you that race at different clubs, what does a MAJORITY of the people want at those tracks?
For me at least, I wouldn't mind the increase in mah for the battery packs and also upping the weight doesn't bother me. And if it was decided that the classic class would just limit the timing on the ESC and no boost, I would be fine with that too.

I just want to not shut out other manufacturers from the equation. I think if you get more manufacturer buy in, you will grow the class.
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