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Old 12-17-2009, 04:12 PM   #31
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Well, if the companies are part of the solution, and don't release software designed to cheat, why is it hard? That's the idea of making the ESC's provide a visual indication that they're in spec mode. Tech isn't any harder than looking through the window to make sure the LED's are blinking in the "spec mode" pattern.
Because companies will continue to make what people want. People want an advantage and they will take it if they can get it. The same thing happened in paintball already. The companies that didn't make cheater boards eventually had to in order to compete. The problem was so rampant that basically all the cheats had to be made legal.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:15 PM   #32
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Why do we need spec ESC's? Just pull the sensor cable off and problem solved...
Sensorless doesn't work reliably with high turn motors used in stock and spec racing.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:29 PM   #33
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Well, the current issue is that you have to spend $350-$400 on a new ESC or be .4 off. And that means everybody has to spend that kind of money just to all get back in line right where they were. And it looks like Tekin is about to drop new software to get back in the game, which means if you're using some other ESC, you need to drop $150+hotwire if you want to keep up with your Tekin peers. And then if Novak's new software is .2 faster... Now 13.5 is faster than 3.5, and you have to spend $100 on new 25.5 motors to slow back down. Or we could just stop this now and focus on other things.

Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
The only people who are that far ahead based on speed control are the sponsored drivers who are going to beat average joe on the track anyway. Average Joe isn't going to be near a .4s per lap increase with just an ESC change and any advantage he does gain will be negated the first time he stuffs it. Once Tekin's software is released you won't need to spend $350+ on an ESC to get that advantage and it will not be long before other manufacturers catch up, from what I hear the Mamba already has or is darn near. The technology is still very new and still changing. I don't think it will be too much longer before most new ESCs are on a fairly level playing field. Right now the hobby is going through growing pains with the new technology...but that is part of growing.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:31 PM   #34
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Default A sensible solution is simple and doable.....

All speed control manufacturers (who wish to participate in entry level spec racing) offer a separate, non-timing, non-PC programmable controller for less than 99.99 (street price).

This needs to be a separate esc because just expecting manufacturers or users to not access timing related programming features in their existing controllers would be a nightmare to police. Each time a mfg releases a programming update, the esc is essentially a new controller. So any attempts by series organizers to establish a cut-off date for new escs is a pointless waste of time. How do racers even know if or when they have the latest update?

For example our existing Havoc 2S offers nine, on-board programming parameters for a price of 79.99. This is about as much programming as most new racers can understand or manage. In addition, more complicated escs are harder on motors and create additional problems.

If the goal is to attract more customers to the R/C hobby and increase participation in various entry level events, we need to make getting involved more affordable for the new guys who are excited about getting involved in local racing.

Just my .02 cents.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:35 PM   #35
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Look at the discussions surrounding the BRL series, and its banning of certain ESC's to see that racers don't want to play this game.
Thanks for the link and I agree with the direction that group took. Maybe the manufacturers will take notice that large groups are doing ESC freezes at the beginning of race seasons, and modify their approach accordingly.

No it won't help as much at the national level races where people have direct access to manufactures to cheat. But realistically club racers will never have that type of access. At club level races, yes I think something like this would help even things up. Yes it is hard to spec. At the club level, I believe the way to do it would be to only spec somebody that wins over and over. Then they can either disqualify them or tell us how they are winning. It is club level.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:36 PM   #36
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That's just the thing...a spec ESC makes it less affordable. Currently with spec racing you just have to buy a new motor. Chances are a backyard basher is not going to buy a spec ESC to play around with...so now when he decides he wants to race instead of just changing motor he now has to change motor and ESC.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:40 PM   #37
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if the RC community were to embrace this it must be an all or nothing solution. You can't have "trust the end user" in rules when it comes to software. In the end, there must be rules about software in spec classes if people want it to be equivalent to the brushed motor days.

The simplest way is to have a tamper-proof (ie. one time programmable MCU), approved fixed X degree timing ESC with fixed timing motors & rotors. This is as close to spec as you can get without naming single manufacturers. The cost is lower and generally the only freedom left is gearing and PWM techniques.

There is still a very small element of trust the manufacturers won't use some secret technique to bypass the system but there is that same risk today with motors anyway.

maybe stock has a fixed timing ESC and super stock has the variable timing ones already existing?
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:41 PM   #38
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That's just the thing...a spec ESC makes it less affordable. Currently with spec racing you just have to buy a new motor. Chances are a backyard basher is not going to buy a spec ESC to play around with...so now when he decides he wants to race instead of just changing motor he now has to change motor and ESC.
How often does a back yard basher buy a $350 "esc of the month".
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:52 PM   #39
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Not often but he probably would buy a Mamba or a Tekin for much less money that does have timing adjustments available.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:24 PM   #40
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how do I know you didnt take the insides of a better esc and put it in the 'spec' esc case?

or just find a way to reprogram it


If a "spec esc" came out we would still have to buy it hence increasing the cost of racing as I HAVE to buy a new item, kind of like the way it already is...


My buddy with 3800 28c and LRP tc esc kills all of us with spx and 50c at my local track
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:30 PM   #41
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Jesus Christ, seaball was right. I might have to kill myself now.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:04 PM   #42
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Okay, so then we're going to pretend there's not actually a problem? That there's no incentive to throw your wallet at spec racing when it doesn't have to be that way? That every club, series and big race now has to deal with what ESC's are legal and what isn't?

We have it within our grasp to stop this, and make things better for free, and you guys are gonna be like "everything is great, guys, what are you talking about?"
sorry my friend, it is you who is pretending there IS a problem, when have we not thrown our wallets at spec racing, when did not search for the magic brush juice, the special springs, the this, and the that, remember those perfectly good 3800's you had and still went out and bought the lastest and greastest 4200's, and on and on and on. did I not just buy a brand new SP V3 13.5 even thou I have a perfectly good V2 13.5 that still kicks butt. you people are acting like this is something new. I have always said from my first local semi big race, dang, i don't mind being out driven, but i hate being out spent, and this is what all this fuss is about, you guys are freaking out over the thought of a 400.00 ESC, while having no problem running out and buying a $500 TC chassis or a $500 radio. And NO not every club, series and big race now has to deal with what ESC's are legal and what isn't, WHY, pretty damn simple, THERE ALL LEGAL. however if YOUR CLUB choses to band a certain ESC that is up to YOUR CLUB.

no one is making anyone run out and buy anything. if you have 3-4-5 guys swaping wins and driver A starts dominating with is new magic ESC well then, step up, or be happy with 2nd.

However I have yet to be beat by a ESC being used by someone that wasn't going to beat me anyway

and the real easy solution to all this, for you club, series, or national spec racing, just set a timing limit, set a gear ratio limit, set a turbo limit, If the people you race with decide to cheat, well thats on them, don't ask me to buy more equipment because you don't trust your fellow racers. of course the even easier and less expensive way to go would be to spec brushed motors and escs for your spec classes

its just my opinion, and my experiences from which i speak.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:07 PM   #43
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This is the same old tired thead as the "fixed timing on motors" thread. Just go racing and have fun. If your a good driver you'll be up front if not you'll be in the back like me. Just stop compaining already.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:14 PM   #44
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Well, the current issue is that you have to spend $350-$400 on a new ESC or be .4 off. And that means everybody has to spend that kind of money just to all get back in line right where they were. And it looks like Tekin is about to drop new software to get back in the game, which means if you're using some other ESC, you need to drop $150+hotwire if you want to keep up with your Tekin peers. And then if Novak's new software is .2 faster... Now 13.5 is faster than 3.5, and you have to spend $100 on new 25.5 motors to slow back down. Or we could just stop this now and focus on other things.

Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
like i said, we have always spent the money for that extra .2, i don't see whats changed and i don't see the problem
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:50 PM   #45
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Moral of the story is the only thing that's "spec" about 13.5 and 17.5 is the wind of the motor, just as it was in 27t and 19t. Those classes weren't cheap to compete in either.


There's plenty of 'spec' classes to race in that controls batteries, esc's, tires ect ect.. So if slower, less expensive, mandated spec racing is what your into then maybe you should look into racing in those classes.
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