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Old 12-17-2009, 11:55 AM   #1
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Default Why aren't "spec" brushless motors machine wound?

This was brought up in another thread. But I wanted to bring it up here because I didn’t want it to be part of the “what’s wrong with TC racing” debate…I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH THE STATUS QUO.

The cost of stock and modified brushless motors was brought up. In the brushed days modifieds cost a lot more than the stock motors of the day. I was reminded that part of this reason was that modified motors were hand wound vs. machine wound in stock.

So why in brushless are all motors hand wound?

Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to machine wind?

How much performance loss would there be?

I see that Trinity has continued their Speed Gems series with brushless motors. The retail on those is $89.99 vs. $119.99 for the DUO 2 stock motors. Is this because they were machine wound? I remember the brushed Speed Gems were machine wound modified motors.

Disclaimer: I don’t have issues with the current prices, nor do I think that current stock/spec motors are too fast. Also this is not a brushed vs brushless debate. I’m just curious as to why this change happened. And ROAR doesn’t have to change the rules to meet this requirement…
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Last edited by PitNamedGordie; 12-17-2009 at 01:14 PM. Reason: trying to keep this thread on topic...
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:12 PM   #2
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That is a good point and is the one thing in all of my arguments I can't explain away. Hand wound was an advantage in modified motors that added cost. Being machine wound reduced cost in stock motors. There wasn't much else to it... it was a spec that reduced manufacturing costs.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:22 PM   #3
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I think we were lucky that the old brushed mod price rules drove the pricing of brushless motors allowing them to be as inexpensive as they are now. They're a great bargain considering that they last many times over as a brushed motor. Machine winding might also be less of a performance loss since the stator doesn't spin but who knows, it may be harder to machine wind a small stator than a 3-pole armature?
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:28 PM   #4
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Machine winding might also be less of a performance loss since the stator doesn't spin but who knows, it may be harder to machine wind a small stator than a 3-pole armature?


It may be as simple as that...

And no doubt I think we get a lot of bang for our buck with brushless.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:29 PM   #5
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The problem with machine winding is that it is inconsistent. So, people will end up spending more to weed out the good motors from the bad ones then they would have spent on one hand wound motor. Brushless motors are very consistent one motor to the next and it wouldn't be bad to keep it that way.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:42 PM   #6
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so how can we make "stock" motors cheaper?
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:51 PM   #7
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so how can we make "stock" motors cheaper?
Well...maybe. But I have no issue with how they are priced now. But we all know stock motors were about 40-50% cheaper than mods when they were brushed. I'm more curious about if brushless motors need to be hand wound. And if they don't need to be why are they?
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:57 PM   #8
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In the past we paid about $30 for a stock motor that had been tuned. Comm cut, new brushes, hoods aligned, broken in and dynoed. Now you pay about $90 for a brushless motor that will last much longer than the old stock. I think a brushless has the life of at least a half dozen or more stock motors. Even at this point the brushless will probably still have lots of life left. So 6 @ $30 is $180 versus the $90 for the brushless. Brushless is a bargain. Also more consistent, no every race day maintenance, no replacing brushes at $5 or so a pair.

Brushless is a win win.
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by nutz4rcyktw View Post
In the past we paid about $30 for a stock motor that had been tuned. Comm cut, new brushes, hoods aligned, broken in and dynoed. Now you pay about $90 for a brushless motor that will last much longer than the old stock. I think a brushless has the life of at least a half dozen or more stock motors. Even at this point the brushless will probably still have lots of life left. So 6 @ $30 is $180 versus the $90 for the brushless. Brushless is a bargain. Also more consistent, no every race day maintenance, no replacing brushes at $5 or so a pair.

Brushless is a win win.


I'm really trying to make sure this doesn't turn into a brushed vs brushless debate. Because there is no debate on that issue.

I am just curious on why all brushless motors are hand wound when in the past stocks were machine wound and mods were hand wound. Also what are the performance differences in brushless if a brushless motor is machine wound. Also would there be a huge cost savings.
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:09 PM   #10
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If hand winding the stators means they're more consistent motor to motor than machine wound, then let's stay with hand wound. Let's not try to fix something that isn't broken.
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:12 PM   #11
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If hand winding the stators means they're more consistent motor to motor than machine wound, then let's say with hand wound. Let's not try to fix something that isn't broken.
Is that the case? If it is cool.

And please read the OP. I'm not trying to fix anything...just asking a question.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitchy View Post
so how can we make "stock" motors cheaper?
Aren't they already cheap compared to the technology they replace? They last 10X longer and don't require any kind of maintenance tools.

They seem like a good value to me.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:41 PM   #13
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My comment's really coming from the "save the noobs" perspective where people think that (old stock spec) 13.5 is way too fast, and 17.5 is approaching "faster than they can handle" speeds with the new ESC technology coming out. I don't have a problem with the pricing the way it is now either. For what I do (17.5), it IS way better than 27t.

So people are saying put them in 21.5, maybe 23.5 or whatever. Problem with that is you are asking noobs to spend mod money for silver can performance. Yeah, it would be fair for everyone, all the benefits of BL, yadda yadda, but spend the same to go same or slower? They ain't gonna go for it...

Now *IF* they could somehow make 21.5, 23.5 motors for like $40-50...they might listen. Otherwise I don't see why they should spend all that money to go slow. Especially in on-road, the first thing a noob wants to do is zip up and down the street. How exciting would that be at 10-15 mph? (psst...not very)
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:50 PM   #14
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The reason we still hand wind all of our BL motors is related to copper fill and consistency from motor to motor. The US sourced wire we use has a larger diameter with a higher copper fill than the motor wires from China that we have examined.

Early on (5800), Adnan (Novak's motor designer of the original 540 sensored, BL motor and our new Ballistic series) investigated the possibility of designing custom tooling for machine-winding our motors. But, the consistency was not acceptable.

It might be cheaper and far less labor-intensive to offer machine wound motors, but customer satisfaction would probably diminish. Brushless motors offer racers a low maintenance, long lasting product worth the original investment.

The new spec wind BL motors are no faster than they have ever been; it's the escs that increase the speed. Eliminate advanced timing speed control adjustments and the entry-level track speeds will be manageable, once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
This was brought up in another thread. But I wanted to bring it up here because I didn’t want it to be part of the “what’s wrong with TC racing” debate…I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH THE STATUS QUO.

The cost of stock and modified brushless motors was brought up. In the brushed days modifieds cost a lot more than the stock motors of the day. I was reminded that part of this reason was that modified motors were hand wound vs. machine wound in stock.

So why in brushless are all motors hand wound?

Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to machine wind?

How much performance loss would there be?
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
The reason we still hand wind all of our BL motors is related to copper fill and consistency from motor to motor. The US sourced wire we use has a larger diameter with a higher copper fill than the motor wires from China that we have examined.

Early on (5800), Adnan (Novak's motor designer of the original 540 sensored, BL motor and our new Ballistic series) investigated the possibility of designing custom tooling for machine-winding our motors. But, the consistency was not acceptable.

It might be cheaper and far less labor-intensive to offer machine wound motors, but customer satisfaction would probably diminish. Brushless motors offer racers a low maintenance, long lasting product worth the original investment.

The new spec wind BL motors are no faster than they have ever been; it's the escs that increase the speed. Eliminate advanced timing speed control adjustments and the entry-level track speeds will be manageable, once again.
Thank you! That's the answer I was looking for.
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