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Old 12-17-2009, 01:55 PM   #46
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:53 PM   #47
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Default Where can I get old stock Sanyo 2400 NiCd?

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Old 12-18-2009, 11:01 AM   #48
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curious about this too, as well as if any company is looking to submit these to ROAR for approval. They are down in voltage in comparison to other packs like lipos for sure, but I can still see some use for these.

As a side note, I shot a message over to the USVTA contact address I could find to see if they would make them legal. since they are safer than lipos, and put out less voltage + are heavier, seems they could work out since they are not "as good" as a lipo.
Reedy will be submitting a pack for EFRA approval and information about the pack will be released in the next couple of days. It will meet ROAR specs as well but because most racing in the U.S. is stock, we don't expect to sell many and won't spend the money to submit it for ROAR approval.

But if anyone is interested in using the battery as a club/spec pack, contact me via PM.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:06 AM   #49
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You are just too young to know, now I figured it out form your comments.

Sanyo 2400 NiCd powered TC will beat your LiPo TC on ROAR sanctioned race any time. Sanyo's 1250 NiCd will beat your car on a 3 minute race (without lead needed to make it ROAR legal). But you can't remember these cells, they were discussed 10-20 years ago, before NiMH came on market that are so uncool to you now.

You can't even dump your lipo pack flat in one race without getting the car into flames from overheating. You do not need that much energy, you just want it because you see that EVERYBODY got it. You remind me of all the trucks on the road that never haul anything. They just want that stupid power because their neighbor drives one.

Unfortunately trends are dictated by people who do not understand that nominal battery voltage is only one of many parameters that determines cars' performance.

You are trendy and that is easy and lazy way out. You will always succeed but never invent anything.
In limited motor racing, voltage does not always win. Differences in batteries of the same type can be overcome with driving and setup. But the difference between a 2S LiPo and 2S LiFe is too great to overcome unless there is a HUGE difference in driving ability.

For modified class, things are different. You can choose different motors to make up for a lack of voltage. However you are still at a big energy disadvantage assuming you are dealing with race legal battery volume.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #50
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:07 PM   #51
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:13 AM   #52
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I said that: they are "banned from non-ROAR races in my local club." Actually as of today, they are none approved by ROAR so you can say that they are banned by ROAR. Let's not play with words.

They will stay cheap when you buy individual cells. Actually, I think they may get even stupidly cheap as they will become the mainstream cells for hybrid cars. Lipo can't do that today and I doubt it will ever be able to do it.
[/I]
I've been in this racing game long enough to know that as soon as batteries from other application become RC race batteries they don't stay cheap.

As far as who's playing with words, ROAR has not banned LiFePO. You're the one playing with words by saying they are. What I said is there are no approval criteria or process for these batteries. I know that EFRA has included them in their LiPo rules and they must meet the LiPo pack dimension specs for consideration.

As far as LiFePO being the best battery technology, I'm not falling for the hype. In the 15 years I've been racing I've seen 2 battery technology evolutions NiCad to NiMh and NiMh to LiPo and both times the hype was the new incoming cell tech was the best tech for our application, they're better, they last longer and the list goes on. In the end racers will push battery cells beyond the limits of it's intended original market. LiFePO will be no different.
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:24 AM   #53
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:13 AM   #54
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I think there it currently no battery that is used widely in both RC and non-RC industry. Correct me if I got this one wrong.
The point I was making was that no cell we've used in RC was developed exsclusivly for RC, they always came from other applications LiFePo, A123, what ever they are no different. That was my point.
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Sure, you see laptops, cameras with lipo for example but these are not the same cells as used in RC. These packs can be purchased stupidly cheap.v
This is exactly why the LiFe cells you are pushing are so inexpensive.
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RC Lipo cells are expensive because they are made exclusively for RC market, which is rather small and we are willing to pay top $$ for top performers.
Do you trully believe if LiFePO is mainstream they won't become expensive like every other cell we had.
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You can find NiMH packs in hybrid and plugging cars but I don't believe the cells are the same we use.

LiFe is different, we can use the same cells as widely used in non-RC industry. Sure, if they get nicely wrapped with big RC letters, they will be more expensive but that dosn't prevent us from using non-RC labeled ones for less and making our own packs. We can't say that LiFe story is going to be the same as with lipo, because we just do not know, only time will tell.

If ROAR approves these, chances are that a) people would start using them b) we wouldn't have to fight non-ROAR clubs for allowing these.
You are not understanding the approval process. Lipo, NiMh and NiCad have rules in the ROAR rule book on dimensions and for lipo on safety. It doesn't mean that any and all of these cells are approved for use in ROAR events. The mfr has to submitt the pack for testing and approval and that pack is what is listed as approved. So to say that you could use non RC LiFePO cells is not the full picture. If it is not an approved battery pack then it's not legal for use in ROAR sanctioned events. Not to mention that these large round cells that have been pictured here don't even fit within the dimensional rules for LiPo packs which is the dimension LiFePO will have to meet if they are considered for approval in the US or in Europe.[/QUOTE]

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I must agree with what has been said here. For stock classes where there is no freedom of choosing a motor, these cells would be a disadvantage. I estimate that to match 17.5T motor on lipo one would have to run 10.5T with life for the same performance. In mod class you can go with any motor, no issues there IMO, may be unless you make it to the Stranahan's level but even he could go from 3.5T to 3.0T for his TC5 (may be).

At this point I do not care about ROAR vs. Life, I have done maximum and this thread clearly shows why they will never become friends. I can't care less now as I want to concentrate on what I can influence and learn.

At this point I collect info about similar cells (see my 1st post that I have updated several times with new info) and reports from others.
The posibility for ROAR approved LiFePO batteries is a possibility as long as the mfr's persue it. It has been said so here. All I've been saying is as a long time RC racer we've heard the hype before and LiFe will be no different, I guarentee it.
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:38 AM   #55
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:58 AM   #56
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I think you misunderstood me. Development of technology and manufacturing of goods are two different things. Yes, all cell technologies where developed not because of RC, but LiFe is the only one that cells manufactured for big industries can also be reused in RC with no modification. Hence the cost should stay low or even go lower. You can't say that about Lipo.

Do you trully believe if LiFePO is mainstream they won't become expensive like every other cell we had? Yes, I truly do for the stated reasons. Again, as I said, the same cells put into packs with even ROAR sticker will be expensive but that dosn't prevent us from making our own cells for practicing and keeping this hobby affordable. Juts go to battery section in the rcgroups to see all the "crazy" folks buying powertool packs and making packs and chargers out of them. Talk about revolution these packs did for that group.

These packs fit cars, there are many to choose from, see my first post for dimensions.

Again, I am going to repeat the same, with the cost of cars, electronics and batteries how are you planning to make it appealing for youngsters especial in this economy? For that money they get PC, iPods or TVs. They do not learn how to solder, what effect different motor turn make, how to use a screwdriver or make simple household repairs. It will be a BestBuy generation and all tinkering will be done in China while we will only consume what they thinker and manufacture.

"we've heard the hype before and LiFe will be no different, I guarentee it" What do you mean?
Wwll maybe you do get it. The RC industry will have to come up with something big if it ever plans to capture the teenage $200 game consoul market. Not even a Slash is a afordable as a stay at hoe, turn it on or off baby sitter. This is a problem for us and the younger generation.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:12 PM   #57
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You are just too young to know, now I figured it out form your comments.

Sanyo 2400 NiCd powered TC will beat your LiPo TC on ROAR sanctioned race any time. Sanyo's 1250 NiCd will beat your car on a 3 minute race (without lead needed to make it ROAR legal). But you can't remember these cells, they were discussed 10-20 years ago, before NiMH came on market that are so uncool to you now.

You can't even dump your lipo pack flat in one race without getting the car into flames from overheating. You do not need that much energy, you just want it because you see that EVERYBODY got it. You remind me of all the trucks on the road that never haul anything. They just want that stupid power because their neighbor drives one.

Unfortunately trends are dictated by people who do not understand that nominal battery voltage is only one of many parameters that determines cars' performance.

You are trendy and that is easy and lazy way out. You will always succeed but never invent anything.
I remember the Sanyo SC and SCR nicads and come on man be serious they would not contend with the power of modern racing. I for one am happy with Lipo technology as it has leveled the playing field, the peformance difference between different lipo packs is minimum. The worst technology for racing was NiMh the performance difference between the cells was shocking, very hard to be competitive against sponsered drivers with sponsered cells and the NiMh pack did not last that long.

I remember the Sanyo SC and SCR NiCadís and lets be serious they would not contend with the power of modern racing. I for one am happy with Lipo technology as it has levelled the playing field, the performance difference between different lipo packs is minimal. It has made racing cheaper, more competitive and easier, the worst technology for racing was the NiMh battery, the performance difference between different cells was great, very hard to be competitive against sponsored drivers with sponsored cells and the expensive NiMh pack did not last that long.

With Lipo technology a racer only needs a simple charger and a balancer, no longer is the need for expensive chargers, cell equalisers, conditioners... no need for multiple expensive packs, no need to charge the battery within an inch of its life and get the heat right to extract the most performance but not too hot that you kill the expensive NiMh pack.

No need for intensive maintenance, just charge and race... If you are concerned about fire just use a Lipo sack, a Lipo is no more dangerous than a NiMh or a NiCd going off like a grenade spraying shrapnel all over the place.

Life batteries are good too though, why donít you just use them, who really cares for the in and outs of the rule book, will you be advantaged... no I donít think so, I would not complain to race my Lipo against a Life.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:24 PM   #58
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Why the Lipo rage, I am with LMB here Lipo technology is cheap, when I started racing a competitive NiCd pack was around the 200.00 aud mark and you needed at least three of these to race. A modern Lipo is around 100.00 usd and you only need one of these to race.

I also agree that Lipo technology has levelled the playing field, I have bought 200.00 aud packs only to be smoked down the straightaway by a sponsored driver.

I gave electric racing away because NiMh technology was too expensive, the cells did not last, required too much maintenance and were too temperamental.

Just buy a Lipo and be done with it, charge safely and you will not have any problems. Sure your Life pack may be the better of the technologies but just like Beta vs. VHS, the LIPO is here to stay and I for one am glad.
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:01 PM   #59
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:53 PM   #60
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LMB, would you please define what is a modern racing? Is that a $100 RTR or $500 kit with $200 charger and $300 in batteries?

These tiny 1250 NiCds pulled more amps than many lipo today. What are you talking about?

Lipo did level the field for those that went deep into their pockets. It is not cheap. There are cheaper alternatives with good results. Read the reports on my first post ($5-$7/cell, $50 chargers, 1000 cycles, high current matching lipo, safe, 20 minutes charge).

I do not buy your argument about simple charges for lipo. They are as cheap as any other nimh charger, actually, I feel that they are more expensive if you want to charge at 5-10A or more.

no longer is the need for expensive chargers, cell equalisers, conditioners? Yes, these features are build into lipo charges and you likely pay for it to be included.

You are right about life span of lipo in comparison with nimh but you forgot the safety. Yeah, yeah, I know they are safe and stuff, that is why so many of PRO burn their models and garages. That is why they are (not) used in hybrid cars. I have to admit that lipo is so cool, and I mean that, that it is hard for you to see it from the other side.

"If you are concerned about fire just use a Lipo sack, a Lipo is no more dangerous than a NiMh or a NiCd going off like a grenade spraying shrapnel all over the place." How many injuries you have heard of from nicd/nimh/life? How many actually use lipo sacks? So then why it is not required to charge nimh in "nicd/nimh/life sacks"?

If you burn your house because of lipo failure and I as your insurance find out that it was caused by a lipo, I pay you no dime. Sorry, it is your personal decision to use it, and you need to take responsibility for it. Clearly every manufacturer states that. It is just like smoking. You buy a pack and it says on it that you will damage your health if you use the product.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to use lipo, they are really cool and many things that were not possible with nimh are now possible, especially heli/air models. But, I am not going to take uneceserry risk and liability if there is a better way to get the same job done.

I think what you guys are saying that everybody needs lipo and $1000 car to be competitive and have fun. I am sorry that that is being the status quo.

I am happy for you that you use lipo, do use it, I am not telling you otherwise, all I want is it to point out something different that is not ideal, that is for sure, and I am not claiming that it is.

I am not saying dump lipo and go back to sub-c. Go and use whatever makes you happy.
Where is your data for the burnt cars and garages, you say lipos are dangerous then back your claim with real world data. I have personally seen a Nicd explode along with a NiMh, I would much rather a small contained fire and puff of smoke with a Lipo fire than to lose an eye due to shrapnel.

Omega no offense but your arguments make no sense, first you say esc's are expensive because of high currents but then you say nicad draws more current then lipo. This sounds like hypcrosy to me, what exactly do you want, lets go back to racing 4 minutes and dumping with NiCd.

I agree with LMB, a simple charger is good enough for a lipo, to be competitive with NiCd or NimH I am sorry but you need a good charger and a discharger capable of at least 20amps. This adds to the price, in all my years of racing I have spent less money with the current technology, that being Lipo and brushless.

Lipo is here to stay, for the short term anyway, Life is a good option but the voltage just isnt there.

My 2c.
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