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Old 01-18-2010, 08:02 PM   #91
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I'll give it a shot!
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:04 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Spdjunky View Post
Ackerman does absolutely nothing for traction flipping.
Actually, on high tack surfaces like Jack the Gripper carpet or soda-treated asphalt, using lots of ackerman can indeed induce traction rolling. When the grip is tacky, increasing ackerman angle speeds up the turn-in process of loading the suspension to it's maximum loading. If a car is on the verge of traction rolling, shortening the time frame from initial turn-in to max tire load will push it over the edge. Literally. Many of the modern cars like the T3 and Photon have lots of ackerman adjustability and the guys who race them at Horsham have noted that phenomenon this indoor season when using the more extreme ackerman settings.

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What diameter are you truing the tires down to? What is your ride height and droop set at?
Jaco Blues are a rubber tire, so no truing. I vary ride height and droop depending on track conditions, but they are usually between 5-5.5mm of ride height and 1.5-3mm of droop.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:05 PM   #93
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The only thing Ackermen does is affect how 'twitchy' or 'quick' the steering is at initial turn in. Full throw steering is still full throw.
That is not true.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:10 PM   #94
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just realized I can use the gluing the tire method on my vehicle in USVTA. thought it was illegal but I guess not.
Should I try this first or try setup changes?
reason being, the car other than the traction rolling issues works excellent.
What surface are you running on?
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:11 PM   #95
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increasing ackerman angle speeds up the turn-in process of loading the suspension to it's maximum loading. If a car is on the verge of traction rolling, shortening the time frame from initial turn-in to max tire load will push it over the edge. Literally.
This I can agree with.
It doesn't directly affect what is happening, it may just make it happen sooner or later. In MY opinion, I change the ackermen to suit the track layout and steering response, not the handling.


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Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
Jaco Blues are a rubber tire, so no truing. I vary ride height and droop depending on track conditions, but they are usually between 5-5.5mm of ride height and 1.5-3mm of droop.
I'm not used to caps ... okay .. your ahead of me now.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:21 PM   #96
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I'm not used to caps ... okay .. your ahead of me now.
You mean they still sell foam tires for touring cars? WHERE!
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:50 PM   #97
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You mean they still sell foam tires for touring cars? WHERE!
LOL .. I started running the VTA class and figured everyone else was still running those foams. I don't miss em one bit.

Can you add caster very easy to your car to help the situation? I almost came to that track over Christmas vacation to run. I heard that was the track to be at.
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:24 PM   #98
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Can you add caster very easy to your car to help the situation? I almost came to that track over Christmas vacation to run. I heard that was the track to be at.
Paul L. once said that the weight jacking effects from adding caster would make traction rolling worse in high bite conditions, and after changing my c-hubs a couple times I completely agree. It seems to be another one of the subtle changes that add up over time.

Horsham is nuts. We joke around that every week is a nationals race because the talent pool is pretty deep and the track conditions are outrageously fast. If you can swing a trip in February, keep your eye on the track's thread for an announcement soon.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:30 AM   #99
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What surface are you running on?
I run on ozite carpet in the VTA class.

As it sits right now, I am going to try the following:

- disconnect sway bars
- softer springs all around

Should I go to a lighter oil also?

I also have a set of progressive springs here too I could try.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:31 AM   #100
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I only have time for a few quick comments.

Read post 50 - and remember it. It was an excellent post.

As mentioned about Adjusting ackermen for traction rolling, all it does is affect how quick the steering reacts which may make it happen sooner or later. This can also be achieved by adjusting shock oil for dampening.

For people that are using 'preowned' cars, make sure the drivetrain is not bottoming out. Make sure when the chassis is against the ground the wheel still has up travel.

Roll centers are HUGE!! It is possible that you may need to lengthen the upper camber link to continue to let the chassis roll. If it is too short, it will start to lean and roll into the corner, then it will max out and start giving more traction back.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:56 PM   #101
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Personally, I prefer to run sway bars on almost everything I race.

It should help spread the weight to the opposite side of the car to help keep from traction rolling IF everything else is set up correctly. If you do not run sway bars, you will need longer camber link rods. With the less chassis roll obtained with the sway bars, you can get by usually running a bit shorter camber link.

You can have a softer suspension than what you would normally have with a stiffer sway bar. Side note, you will NEED a softer suspension with a stiffer sway bar

Try to keep droop to 1-2 mm. Anything more seems to slow the reaction and cause more problems.

For now, stay away from your progressive springs. Most almost all manufactures springs are some what progressive, just in very small amounts compared to your others. If you run a soft spring on the car, chances are you won't notice the 'progressive' part of the spring since you have it cranked down to get your ride height back. So the right spring selection will offer you a better ride.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:06 PM   #102
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Thanks for all the good advice guys . I will be at the track ( mimi's ) this weekend and we are running on ozite with proline blues . Traction rolling has been a real problem. I will deffinatyl try some of the techiques discussed here. Please keep the ideas coming. Thanks
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:20 AM   #103
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looks like we are going to get a pretty good storm this weekend, so I am going to sit down and change the settings on my vehicles. I'll post my current setup prior to that, and see what others thing to try.

Any advise about the following oneway types and traction rolling:

- Differential Oneway
- Center shaft drive oneway
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:28 AM   #104
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Oneways shouldn't affect traction rolling in my opinion.

Let me know how the racing goes this weekend. How high is the traction where you are running?
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:43 AM   #105
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Hey thanks guys I used alot of your ideas this weekend and only had 3 traction rolls and hose really were driver eror from jacking the wheel at the wrong time. I didn't glue outer tires I used swaybars and widened the car out and pulled the akerman back. Was a totally different car . Got in the A main and was the best the car has been since. I was racing at Mimi's in Gaithersburg MD, ozite carpet.
Keep the ideas coming , thanks again.
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