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Old 12-15-2009, 08:14 AM   #121
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I don't see any way to quickly fix the Motor, Speedo, and Adjustable Timing & etc... within the speedo.

To have this addressed, you would need to get all the manufacturers in a room and get them to agree on some motor and speedo rules. Once this happens, you can't just enforce it all the sudden, you will have to make it an effective rule 2-years from now, 2012 rules. Given the development time, purchases already done by the racers, etc... the extra time before implementation would be required.

Maybe we should just go back to Brushed motors with LiPo batt's. All the extreme things going on with Brushless will end suddenly.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:19 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by kn7671 View Post
I don't see any way to quickly fix the Motor, Speedo, and Adjustable Timing & etc... within the speedo.

To have this addressed, you would need to get all the manufacturers in a room and get them to agree on some motor and speedo rules. Once this happens, you can't just enforce it all the sudden, you will have to make it an effective rule 2-years from now, 2012 rules. Given the development time, purchases already done by the racers, etc... the extra time before implementation would be required.

Maybe we should just go back to Brushed motors with LiPo batt's. All the extreme things going on with Brushless will end suddenly.
Why does it need to be changed? What is the problem with adjustable timing?

Last edited by or8ital; 12-15-2009 at 08:26 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:37 AM   #123
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I'm just a new guy but I have to say that the adjustable timing, expensive esc's, or expensive chassis aren't going to push me away from this hobby. The only thing that is going to push me away from this hobby is the constant bitching and complaining about so many things. I think some of the veterans need to step back and remember that this is a hobby, a way to blow off some steam from the real world.

I drive over an hour each way to race my toy cars twice a week for a total of about 300 miles every week. I am doing this so that I can have a little extra fun in my life and spend some time with friends. I really enjoy this hobby. If I win a couple of heats and eventually a few a mains then great. If I don't win I'm still going to be driving home with a big smile on my face.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:38 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by lowcel View Post
I'm just a new guy but I have to say that the adjustable timing, expensive esc's, or expensive chassis aren't going to push me away from this hobby. The only thing that is going to push me away from this hobby is the constant bitching and complaining about so many things. I think some of the veterans need to step back and remember that this is a hobby, a way to blow off some steam from the real world.

I drive over an hour each way to race my toy cars twice a week for a total of about 300 miles every week. I am doing this so that I can have a little extra fun in my life and spend some time with friends. I really enjoy this hobby. If I win a couple of heats and eventually a few a mains then great. If I don't win I'm still going to be driving home with a big smile on my face.
+1 This should be a sticky someplace on the forum.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:40 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by lowcel View Post
I'm just a new guy but I have to say that the adjustable timing, expensive esc's, or expensive chassis aren't going to push me away from this hobby. The only thing that is going to push me away from this hobby is the constant bitching and complaining about so many things. I think some of the veterans need to step back and remember that this is a hobby, a way to blow off some steam from the real world.

I drive over an hour each way to race my toy cars twice a week for a total of about 300 miles every week. I am doing this so that I can have a little extra fun in my life and spend some time with friends. I really enjoy this hobby. If I win a couple of heats and eventually a few a mains then great. If I don't win I'm still going to be driving home with a big smile on my face.
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:40 AM   #126
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Why does it need to be changed? What is the problem with adjustable timing?
Nothin...nothin at all...

What I like about timing adjustment as opposed to trying to cut comms and brushes, and mess with springs and brush hood alignments...is back in the day when I wanted to make a motor faster it would be hit or miss whether my work on my motors would improve anything. Heck sometimes my motors got slower when I was done with them. Now it's as simple as a turn of an end bell and/or a few clicks of my mouse. Instant performance changes...easy, consistent, measurable, and everyone can do it.
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Last edited by PitNamedGordie; 12-15-2009 at 08:42 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by lowcel View Post
I'm just a new guy but I have to say that the adjustable timing, expensive esc's, or expensive chassis aren't going to push me away from this hobby. The only thing that is going to push me away from this hobby is the constant bitching and complaining about so many things. I think some of the veterans need to step back and remember that this is a hobby, a way to blow off some steam from the real world.

I drive over an hour each way to race my toy cars twice a week for a total of about 300 miles every week. I am doing this so that I can have a little extra fun in my life and spend some time with friends. I really enjoy this hobby. If I win a couple of heats and eventually a few a mains then great. If I don't win I'm still going to be driving home with a big smile on my face.
+2
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:42 AM   #128
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Nothin...nothin at all...

What I like about timing adjustment as opposed to trying to cut comms and brushes, and mess with springs and brush hood alignments...is back in the day when I wanted to make a motor faster it would be hit or miss whether my work on my motors would improve anything. Heck sometimes my motors got slower when I was done with them. Now it's as simple as a turn of an end bell and/or an few clicks of my mouse. Instant performance changes...easy, consistent, measurable, and everyone can do it.
Exactly!

You put fixed timing in place then you go back to the days where people crank motors to gain an advantage. Just another thing to have to tech.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:04 AM   #129
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so, let's say that you fix the timing.. fine. I will start a company selling 'black market' sensor boards in the timing increment you want. It would be nearly impossible to tell them apart from the OEM boards without a trained eye or measuring equipment. Motors with fixed timing solves nothing, and is not the problem. Actually, I don't think there is any problem here except for a bunch of racers complaining that technology is growing at an exponential rate. This is because brushless motor technology is so new. It will continue to evolve with or without us.

And I'm not saying that it won't suck at times.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:15 AM   #130
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Orbital ........ +1. On top of the tech issue without timming in the system you'll be left with one option to tune, GEARING. People will just put bigger gears on and burn up more motors. Kinda like we were doing 9-18 months ago when we didn't have these dynamic timing speedos with adjustable timing motors.

In the end getting rid of timing isn't going to fix things. Timmy just proved my point with his black market sensor board. It may save a few bucks on a motor but that's it. In the end it will cost you more, and the fast guys will still be the fast guys.

What's hard to believe is that most of this is being bitched about because of one brushless esc. So if it's that one esc that your worried about talk to your tracks managment and get them to do something.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:34 AM   #131
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I've seen the same thing. You and I have probably been to the same tracks and know the same racers. There's no doubt that most racers will help other people out as much as they can. Every track I've been to new people are welcome. But you and I are looking at this from different perspectives. You get your information from people who are racing. I get mine from people who are not racing.

For some time now I've been trying to talk to those people who gave up on racing. I've been trying to get a sense of why they left. There are many different reasons, but it boils down to how much they were spending versus how much fun they were having. Sure, you can get into the hobby buying less than the best stuff, and you could probably do very well with it. But at some point everyone realizes that in order to step up to the next level of competition you have to start spending a lot of money. And this problem is particularly acute in the high traction world of carpet racing.

Any slight advantage in power (motor or battery) is an advantage in carpet racing. No not everyone will benefit from that advantage, but those who can most certainly will. I'll take myself as an example. I'm an average driver at best. I can get a car around the track without hitting anything, but usually slower than the good racers. Now if I'm down on power just a little to those guys, the only way I can make it up is to drive better. So while those guys are driving at 95%, I'm driving at 100 to 105% to make up time. And if you're driving over your skill level for any amount of time, eventually you hit something, and probably break. People get tired of fixing their cars on race day. The point at which people give up is different for everyone, but that point is out there, and more and more people are reaching that point.
Nice post.

And +1, No, it's no fun fixing your car on race day, even if you go on to TQ and win, it's still in the back of your mind, and still an expense...

When the whole preparation and cost of racing overlooks your own gratification from the hobby, that's the time to quit, or look at a different class of racing, as then it turns from being a hobby into a chore...

I have raced 15 years, and seen things change a lot in that time. Im not sure if I have liked everything that's changed, as now it is an even bigger learning curve to make sure that car of yours is understood even more than before to make the most from it.

There is only so much buying, learning (and breaking stuff) one can do before they admit defeat...
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:45 AM   #132
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TC and road racing needs a class like the Slash Class. The SC Class has revitalized electric offroad and brought so many new people to the sport it's staggering.

When I say look to real racing, I'm looking for limits. Nascar is hardly racing I would look for. Some forms of racing literally add weight to the winners car to slow him down to eveyone else's speed!(). This is not the way to go for r/c but you get the point.

I still think that traction should be looked at to limit speed. A harder tire that may last longer will limit available traction therefor creating the need to slow down to physics. No sense in blowing the corner if you're just going to crash.

Locked timing motors are not the answer, you could move the sensors enough to make a difference. Locking down a speedo isn't the answer as this will create a slow down in performance and technology improvements.


Software and hardware exsists right now that could limit the timing on ANY BL motor to a set point. Running a motor in DUAL mode with timing set at an "agreed" upon set point would remove the possability for the motors sensors to have ANY affect on overall speed. Yes people will just throw more gear on it, there will be a point of no benefit to this also. We were all burning up 27t brushed motors anyhow right? The "issue" to this would be that all current speedo manufacturers don't have the technology to do this. We've been asked to this before for racers like VTA and RCGT.

What do you guys think?
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:00 AM   #133
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Sounds like the "spec" solution would be to go sensorless. (???)
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:05 AM   #134
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for me at least, I prefer the option of adjusting the settings for better performance electronically. Makes it a closer tuning war. I know for some they see brushless and lipo as the enemy, and want classes that are limited to the old tech as they feel its better for newbies, etc.

At the same time, they usually have a dyno, a lathe, brush cutter, hood alignment tool, magnet zapper, and a turbo 35 in the background.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:29 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Randy_Pike View Post
TC and road racing needs a class like the Slash Class. The SC Class has revitalized electric offroad and brought so many new people to the sport it's staggering.

When I say look to real racing, I'm looking for limits. Nascar is hardly racing I would look for. Some forms of racing literally add weight to the winners car to slow him down to eveyone else's speed!(). This is not the way to go for r/c but you get the point.

I still think that traction should be looked at to limit speed. A harder tire that may last longer will limit available traction therefor creating the need to slow down to physics. No sense in blowing the corner if you're just going to crash.

Locked timing motors are not the answer, you could move the sensors enough to make a difference. Locking down a speedo isn't the answer as this will create a slow down in performance and technology improvements.


Software and hardware exsists right now that could limit the timing on ANY BL motor to a set point. Running a motor in DUAL mode with timing set at an "agreed" upon set point would remove the possability for the motors sensors to have ANY affect on overall speed. Yes people will just throw more gear on it, there will be a point of no benefit to this also. We were all burning up 27t brushed motors anyhow right? The "issue" to this would be that all current speedo manufacturers don't have the technology to do this. We've been asked to this before for racers like VTA and RCGT.

What do you guys think?

I like the idea of a TC "Slash" class. Would that mean car manufacturers would need to design inexpensive cars (RTR's) that are easy to drive out of the box? Kinda like a TA05 RTR?

What has been nice about the Slash type of trucks is that all of the car makers have stuck to similar designs. What would happen if someone came out with a $400+ full graphite/aluminum/titanium Slash style of truck that is better than the competition. In TC it seems as if that is always the case...
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