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Old 12-13-2009, 08:26 PM   #46
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Welcome back Nick Priest (not sure you will stay around long again with posts like this). I do agree about just driving them.
not long at all
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:26 PM   #47
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The solution is simple, ROAR can mandate locked timing motors and speed controls with no timing advance feature, like Novak's Havoc, or like in the old days, mandate a maximum retail cost for the speed control since that's where the speed/tech is. To the question about how to tech it, watch it race. If timing is set to a spec and a car goes 3-4 mph faster then it's on the racer to explain how he did it under the rules. The point of stock was always to be a less expensive class for newer racers to get into the hobby with and every time it makes a step in the right direction we and the manufactures mess it up.

The way to fix it if for the rules to make is something that can't be messed with so the speed can't be bought.
Sorry David but you are so wrong. ROAR can't force rules as easy as you think, nor do I think they should try. Are you a ROAR member? Do you only race at ROAR tracks. Do the tracks you race at follow ROAR rules only. We, as racers expect ROAR to fix everything for us, we expect them to anticipate our mistakes for us, sorry its not gonna happen.

We as racers hardly join the organization then we go and race at non ROAR local tracks and then we race in larger numbers at the IIC, Snowbirds, etc. then at the ROAR nationals. Those other races run their races based on ROAR rules, but they could skip over the rules that the racers don't want to use in those events. I think those races are fine and in some ways probably more fun to attend, but until ROAR has much more support from the racers then we can't expect them to fix everything for us. We need to figure it out ourselves. Getting all the big races in near total agreement would be a good start.

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Old 12-13-2009, 08:57 PM   #48
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No one would listen to us when we said that this would happen, and that we needed to keep BR for the lo-cost classes. You've made your bed, have the good grace to lie in it and suffer your discomfort in silence. No one can help you, so you just need to get on with it. Sorry, but that's life...
Even with all this crap going on brushless is 10x better than brushed. Every motor i ever had that was fast magically turned to crap after I rebuilt it. Maybe I suck, but it was really frustrating. I can't imagine people just starting out liked it much either. At least now I can relax for 5 minutes after I race vs. yanking my motor out and rebuilding it and trying to get everything else done, too.

Honestly, do you think we are a bunch of morons who thought we were all going out to the daisy farm when brushless came out? You'd have to be pretty green to think that there were not going to be any issues with a brand new technology (see NIMH). To tell you the truth, I didn't see very much complaining at all until about the last few months, when all these companies ramped up their advancements at the same time. A lot of people thought the Tekin ESC wasn't very good until they hit the right software a couple versions ago. Mamba was good for EMaxxes lolz. LRP had the SPX, but it wasn't unfair, and some guys running 13.5 even thought the tc spec was more driveable.

So to be real, now we have a $350 ESC, in the crappiest economy in the last 20+ years, with on road not doing so well. What do you think will happen? People will mentally draw the line. Some can't spend the money, some won't spend the money. Either way they are calling shennanigans on the whole thing. So if you want to be a big tough guy and say "too bad" you gonna be a little short on racers on race day. When people get fed up they'll vote with their feet.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:04 PM   #49
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Sorry David but you are so wrong. ROAR can't force rules as easy as you think, nor do I think they should try. Are you a ROAR member? Do you only race at ROAR tracks. Do the tracks you race at follow ROAR rules only. We, as racers expect ROAR to fix everything for us, we expect them to anticipate our mistakes for us, sorry its not gonna happen.

We as racers hardly join the organization then we go and race at non ROAR local tracks and then we race in larger numbers at the IIC, Snowbirds, etc. then at the ROAR nationals. Those other races run their races based on ROAR rules, but they could skip over the rules that the racers don't want to use in those events. I think those races are fine and in some ways probably more fun to attend, but until ROAR has much more support from the racers then we can't expect them to fix everything for us. We need to figure it out ourselves. Getting all the big races in near total agreement would be a good start.

Steve
I don't think I'm wrong but fair enough. For what it's worth, ROAR did exactly what I suggested by mandating the spec and max-retail price of stock motors (price fixing was illegal in the US but whatever..). It may be unfair to put it on ROAR but for better or worse, the majority of tracks follow the rules they write, members or not.

It's all hypothetical and if the Castle speedo catches on and proves to be really competitive then everyone will have to price to compete (or their price will go up) and the costing issue will be much better but the issue of speed remains. Stock or any motor spec class is supposed to be a speed limitation. This tech will just create yet another stock-class shake up and everyone will be buying motors every time it's decided that stock has gotten too fast, which is the same problem that everyone has with the speed control of the week.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:16 PM   #50
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I don't think I'm wrong but fair enough. For what it's worth, ROAR did exactly what I suggested by mandating the spec and max-retail price of stock motors (price fixing was illegal in the US but whatever..). It may be unfair to put it on ROAR but for better or worse, the majority of tracks follow the rules they write, members or not.

It's all hypothetical and if the Castle speedo catches on and proves to be really competitive then everyone will have to price to compete (or their price will go up) and the costing issue will be much better but the issue of speed remains. Stock or any motor spec class is supposed to be a speed limitation. This tech will just create yet another stock-class shake up and everyone will be buying motors every time it's decided that stock has gotten too fast, which is the same problem that everyone has with the speed control of the week.
Well at least at the Custom Works Dirt Oval Championships the new MMP won every 13.5 class. Had a total of 509 entries and over 60 racers in each of the 3 13.5 oval classes. Of the 24 racers in the 13.5 A mains 20 of them had the MMP and 4 Tekins. Not sure of dominace but non of these racers run for Castle. Not bad for a 130 buck basher speedo.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:24 PM   #51
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Was it just a few months ago in Vegas when everyone was complaining Foul about the CRC ESc they were using? Join ROAR then you can complain to ROAR. You can even volunteer for the on-road committee( they are looking for people)- just go to the ROAR site. Yes I was on the committee and my membership number is 7540. What's yours?
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:34 PM   #52
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This is definitely interesting to watch you guys go back and forth on this. I honestly don't see the issue here, technology advances, get with it.

This is like online gamers complaining that the guy on the other end of your first person shooter is fragging the lights out of you because he can afford a computer with higher frame rates and faster processors...seriously, are you really trying to ban inevitable progression of technology? Really, ROAR is supposed to stop this?

As someone who hosted two ROAR races this past season at my local track, I know for sure, most racers (especially electric) will not even show up for ROAR races. I was told by someone, "ROAR Electric Regional races don't mean anything". Now it's ROAR's fault?

I race nitro mostly. One thing I've noticed is a 10th scale touring nitro car at any race runs a .12 motor. Murnan Modified, Novarossi Stock 353, or OS .12TZ, all in the same class. 1 class, all drivers race together, everyone setup their car, all smiles and smoke at the track. So simple...right?

Try this at an electric race, good luck with that. Here's an observation from someone fairly new to the hobby. Most electric guys don't like to lose!!! You'll find someone fully sponsored running and TQ'ing 17.5 and placing top 10 in 13.5. Or running a slower class because the competition in another class is too tough. Now that things are getting faster, I doubt that it's the speed that is the real issue here. To me it looks more like anyone can "buy speed" and now that is the real problem. The playing field is changing and instead of getting out there an turning laps with the faster cars, attempts are made to stop progress all together.

I've always felt if electric onroad died, it would be the drivers fault. I'm sticking to that. As much as I like nitro, I have electric cars also and friends that really enjoy it. So with that said, I'll do what I can to help it survive. Even if that means racing in a class I know i can't win in. At least I'm out there with friends and driving.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:00 PM   #53
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This is definitely interesting to watch you guys go back and forth on this. I honestly don't see the issue here, technology advances, get with it.

This is like online gamers complaining that the guy on the other end of your first person shooter is fragging the lights out of you because he can afford a computer with higher frame rates and faster processors...seriously, are you really trying to ban inevitable progression of technology? Really, ROAR is supposed to stop this?

As someone who hosted two ROAR races this past season at my local track, I know for sure, most racers (especially electric) will not even show up for ROAR races. I was told by someone, "ROAR Electric Regional races don't mean anything". Now it's ROAR's fault?

I race nitro mostly. One thing I've noticed is a 10th scale touring nitro car at any race runs a .12 motor. Murnan Modified, Novarossi Stock 353, or OS .12TZ, all in the same class. 1 class, all drivers race together, everyone setup their car, all smiles and smoke at the track. So simple...right?

Try this at an electric race, good luck with that. Here's an observation from someone fairly new to the hobby. Most electric guys don't like to lose!!! You'll find someone fully sponsored running and TQ'ing 17.5 and placing top 10 in 13.5. Or running a slower class because the competition in another class is too tough. Now that things are getting faster, I doubt that it's the speed that is the real issue here. To me it looks more like anyone can "buy speed" and now that is the real problem. The playing field is changing and instead of getting out there an turning laps with the faster cars, attempts are made to stop progress all together.

I've always felt if electric onroad died, it would be the drivers fault. I'm sticking to that. As much as I like nitro, I have electric cars also and friends that really enjoy it. So with that said, I'll do what I can to help it survive. Even if that means racing in a class I know i can't win in. At least I'm out there with friends and driving.

+1 - I know going into every race I'm not the fastest guy attending the party; that being said, I work towards getting as much track time as possible, working on chassis setup and driving to the best of my ability. So long as I turn faster laps after each race, I'm a happy man.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:02 PM   #54
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Slowing the cars down can happen. However 1s is not the answer. Lowering the voltage down to this level in a TC is going to cause problems for all the radio equipment. None of which is currenlty designed to run this low.

My personal opinion is to look into real racing. This is the time for ROAR to step up and force faster drivers to run faster classes. Start tracking the who's who and make sure they're in the right classes.

Software can be made to "spec" anything you'd like. We can assure that no matter what motor is being used that a set amount of timing is reached period regardless of sensored or non sensored.

This is why I race MOD offroad! LOL
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:04 PM   #55
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My personal opinion is to look into real racing. This is the time for ROAR to step up and force faster drivers to run faster classes. Start tracking the who's who and make sure they're in the right classes.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:42 PM   #56
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About time everyone sees what im talking about. Roar is too busy worrying about if you have stickers on your car or what tshirt you are wearing. Something needs to be changed and roar is no where to be found. Time to start another sanctioning body. Bypass roar.
Great idea! Before I join your new association, please tell me how you will control this problem. Thanks.

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I think the only way to control this is that ROAR needs to put a cut-off for new products ( for stock and super stock). This should run for the entire season. New products can be used mod classes. What needs to stop is new esc's coming out every week that can't be bought at LHS. This is just my .02
In the worst economy for ten years in the toughest market in the World, how do we think the manufacturer's would react if ROAR restrained their market? Sue, sue sue....!! This is the fee market economy at work...

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Stop worrying about timing and just drive the bloody things!
Hear hear!!

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I could fix all of this tomorrow. We'll just tell everybody that all spec motors must be fixed timing and speedos can't have timing advance for spec motor classes. It actually is that simple.

Nobody foresaw all of this. Maybe some of the manufactures had a clue, but either way we're in a trick bag now.
No it's not that simple and yes, people did foresee it...

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Honestly, do you think we are a bunch of morons who thought we were all going out to the daisy farm when brushless came out? You'd have to be pretty green to think that there were not going to be any issues with a brand new technology (see NIMH).
I refer you to the posts on this thread - don't you think they are a bit moronic? We will always have issues with new technology, and the answer is never to ban it.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:31 AM   #57
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No it's not that simple and yes, people did foresee it...

I refer you to the posts on this thread - don't you think they are a bit moronic? We will always have issues with new technology, and the answer is never to ban it.
Please explain to me how it is not that simple?

Also, you tend to talk like every person on this thread is a idiot. I assure you I had my reservations about brushless motors, along with a lot of people. So far the bad has been outweighed by the good. That is not to say there are not problems, and this is the head boiling over as we speak. Onroad has its own set of challenges, and the excess speed is one of them. 10 years ago a lot of clubs had mod heats of tc at indoor tracks. This is pretty much non existent at this point. Going faster, breaking more stuff, and having a high level of difficulty is not going to keep new racers (or even old ones) racing on road. They're going to race slashes or 1/8 offroad where you can't break the cars and they don't spool up to 35 mph in 6 feet. You can fix a problem that changes every 2 weeks. I still think were gonna have to ride out a bad period before things get good again.

Also, to me this is about 90' x40' (or less) indoor tracks in the usa vs. 5 cell on a gas car track in Europe. Mod racing on our tracks is like a knife fight in a phone booth. So any examples of how great everything is over there are not contributing to the conversation. You're gonna find out how fun everything is very soon when you start running lipo.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:14 AM   #58
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You're gonna find out how fun everything is very soon when you start running lipo.
Yeah, fun buying new packs. Why? Not because your cells are tapped out, but because they're crap compared to the packs which are 10c higher than the ones you bought right before the last race you went to......
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:19 AM   #59
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Noone in electric on-road ever loses to a better set-up car with a better driver. We are all beaten by professional stock racers who have super high timing motors and alien-technology derived speed controls.

These threads prove only that most who race electric on-road have very little grasp on reality....
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:11 AM   #60
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Writing rules is easy. Enforcing rules is much harder.

And tell me how ROAR is going to force drivers to move up one class. Look at all the back talk from the new sportsman class. People are arguing about running decals for crying out loud.
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