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Old 12-13-2009, 12:15 AM   #16
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im just going to say this! for those of you who thought brushless was going to even the field out im sorry! but for anybody who had raced for any amount of time we knew it wouldnt! make a motor the is "untuneable" someone will make it better/faster. go back to the days of brushed 27t 24deg. the guys who were fast with those are the guy who are fast now! because they work on setup and tuning! its been said many of times no matter what you do the fast guys are always going to be fast! its because they work to get every little bit out of what they have.
i look at racing around here. the guys who were on top with brushed are still there with brushless and it goes on down the running order the same as it always did!
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:09 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
For us stock racers the 27 Turn motor was the standard and the timing was fixed.

Mod racers were allowed to adjust timing.

If you think about it we are not racing stock anymore but mod. We cannot call this stock racing by any means. Racers are having problems in (stock) because of timing issues on the motor, I have even seen guys destroy new motors due to not setting the timing right. This is not fun for the beginner, the brushless motor was suppose to make everything easer, it's not.

If we are to have a stock class we need standars on the motor, even nascar has motor standards. Our so called stock motors use bearings, not bushings where's the bushings. This is not stock racing!
Too late. Your asking mfrs' to spend more money to make a nonadjustable timing spec motor?
Roar doesn't have a crystal ball that can predict mfr's making speedos with dynamic timing or turbo features.
I love brushless stuff better than chucking brushes after a few runs, cutting comms, dyno tuning to try and find the right brush/spring setup. This would be the same as physically changing the timing on the brushless motor to find the sweet spot. Hell I've burned up plenty off stock motors in my day. Brushless is so much easier. Bushings suck and help create heat in the motor.
The std is 17.5. What more do you need? Things are fine the way they are. I don't hear anybody at the track complainin that 17.5's are too fast.
If you happen to be one of these racers. Get more track time to adjust to the speed or go novice with a 21.5.

Fast guys will always be fast. It's not always about motor. Setup and tires are key. I never thought I lost a race because someone had a faster 17.5 than me!
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:30 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by onroad dude View Post
im just going to say this! for those of you who thought brushless was going to even the field out im sorry! but for anybody who had raced for any amount of time we knew it wouldnt! make a motor the is "untuneable" someone will make it better/faster. go back to the days of brushed 27t 24deg. the guys who were fast with those are the guy who are fast now! because they work on setup and tuning! its been said many of times no matter what you do the fast guys are always going to be fast! its because they work to get every little bit out of what they have.
i look at racing around here. the guys who were on top with brushed are still there with brushless and it goes on down the running order the same as it always did!
I don't know about this. I don't ever remember stock racing being as close as it is now. The top guys are still top but the next tier down is now closer to them than they were in brushed days.

The problem also is not the motor and it's timing (most people seem to run 0 timing on the brushless motor anyway). My preference would be to leave things the way they are. Things will level out soon. Its the growing pains of a new high-tech technology. If a change were to be made maybe its to what wind motor is used in stock and super stock. Perhaps 21.5/17.5 rather than 17.5/13.5.

Last edited by or8ital; 12-13-2009 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:37 AM   #19
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The Motors, Batteries and ESC have all changed since I started racing in 1979. Each time the motors changed they got faster.The same with batteries and ESC.The problem is people don't take the time to lead how to drive there cars.It takes practice to learn how to set-up your car and drive them. Unfornately 99% of the current drivers have never driven a 1/12th car with 1200ma batteries for 8 minutes and learn throttle control. Oh I almost forgot no ESC ( a sevvo with a wiper arm on a sister,for your ESC). Learn to set up your car and drive it. The faster guys will alway be here and they will beat you. Look at they way they drive the course. Ask them questions - most will answer.As with everything now days everyone wants things instantly- to go to the upper level without any effort. Practice - car set will do wonders!
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:57 AM   #20
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hence i'm ponderin goin back to the egg and doin 1/12. prob is local track apparently needs to fix the new carpet since apparently its acting like a triple or quad jump at end of straight. that and before i know it i'll be in my new house, mortgage poor, and outdoors will be here and i'll be lucky to race anythin at all.

i hate nitro, but perhaps too much of a good thing in electric is its own undoing.

R

100% agreement that folks love to 'buy' speed, and its not track time their buying.
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:57 AM   #21
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I feel that there is a lot less tricks with brushless than brushed.I would spend hours in my secret laboratory working on motors till I could get a motor at its peak performance. Brushless comes down to getting the gearing correct. With speedos yes they are changing and omg they have one out for 400 dollars now. Give it some time that new latest and greatest speedo will not be 400 dollars for ever. Manufacturers are all updating and revising. Stopping technology will never stop, it never did with brushed motors and will not stop now. I feel that since brushless has come out I have spent a lot less money and I carry a lot less with me when racing.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by fleetmaster View Post
With so many of the said motors out there, it would be ridiculous to tell thousands of racers that they can't race them any more.
The motors themselves can only be timed so far,before they are inefficient .

The speedies are more of an issue, but any kind of control over them will always be gotten around.
It only took the aftermarket tuners a few months to crack the Nissan R35 GTR e.c.u.
Nissan said it couldn't be tuned,they were wrong !! I dare say that they spent a little bit of money trying make theirs hack proof.
Much more than any rc company will ever afford.

Get out there and have fun. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and improve what is THE BIGGEST INPUT to your car's success - Your driving !!!
Drive the wheels off what you do have and stop worrying about everyone else.

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+1

This discussion is crazy IMO. Fixed timing...special speedos...KooKoo. All things will never be equal. Never.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:15 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ultegrasti View Post
hence i'm ponderin goin back to the egg and doin 1/12. prob is local track apparently needs to fix the new carpet since apparently its acting like a triple or quad jump at end of straight. that and before i know it i'll be in my new house, mortgage poor, and outdoors will be here and i'll be lucky to race anythin at all.

i hate nitro, but perhaps too much of a good thing in electric is its own undoing.

R

100% agreement that folks love to 'buy' speed, and its not track time their buying.
Before you do that, consider the new speedos are at their best advantage with low voltage, like the single cell lipo that is the current 1/12 standard.

In touring car at least you have the 7.4 volt batteries, meaning you already have a tremdous amount of power. Sure you could still advance the timing but you would probably burn out motors before you saw any real speed advantage.

The answer in touring car is to take away traction, in other words go to rubber tire only. Foam tires are great but they give too much traction. Ever wonder why off road doesn't have the same problems with motors?
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:15 AM   #24
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The solution is simple, ROAR can mandate locked timing motors and speed controls with no timing advance feature, like Novak's Havoc, or like in the old days, mandate a maximum retail cost for the speed control since that's where the speed/tech is. To the question about how to tech it, watch it race. If timing is set to a spec and a car goes 3-4 mph faster then it's on the racer to explain how he did it under the rules. The point of stock was always to be a less expensive class for newer racers to get into the hobby with and every time it makes a step in the right direction we and the manufactures mess it up.

The way to fix it if for the rules to make is something that can't be messed with so the speed can't be bought.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:18 AM   #25
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The solution is simple, ROAR can mandate locked timing motors and speed controls with no timing advance feature, like Novak's Havoc, or like in the old days, mandate a maximum retail cost for the speed control since that's where the speed/tech is. To the question about how to tech it, watch it race. If timing is set to a spec and a car goes 3-4 mph faster then it's on the racer to explain how he did it under the rules. The point of stock was always to be a less expensive class for newer racers to get into the hobby with and every time it makes a step in the right direction we and the manufactures mess it up.

The way to fix it if for the rules to make is something that can't be messed with so the speed can't be bought.
You cannot tech something by using a subjective measure like seeing who's faster. I want you to be the tech guy to tell a racer he's disqualified because he looked too fast.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:20 AM   #26
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You cannot tech something by using a subjective measure like seeing who's faster. I want you to be the tech guy to tell a racer he's disqualified because he looked too fast.
Sure you can. BL and Lipo are so consistent that if timing adjustment was taken out of the equation the cars would literally all have exactly the same power.
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:12 PM   #27
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Sure you can. BL and Lipo are so consistent that if timing adjustment was taken out of the equation the cars would literally all have exactly the same power.
Just because you have the same power doesn't mean that you are going to have the same speed. Set-up and how the car goes through the infield have a huge impact on top speed. That and how you drive.

Things will never be equal.

If we get to a point where things get to be too fast there are ways to slow down. Change the 17.5's from double winds to single winds for instance. I would like to see ROAR review the speeds every 5 years or so (set a schedule) and make changes as necessary with a one year advanced notice.

Things are too fast when the slowest class (17.5 unless you run oval or VTA) is too fast for new racers to learn how to drive. Stock speeds today are easily as fast as mod speeds were when I started racing 20 years ago.
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:13 PM   #28
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I would like to address this to ROAR,

In stock 27 turn motors it has fixed timing, now that we have brushless motors why in stock class are we allowed to play with the timing? This is causing a problem in stock class, why has ROAR officals over looked this?
Messing with timing was a mod thing. Should ROAR make manufactuers produce fixed timed brushless motors?
This is not a problem that was created by the National Associations like ROAR. It is a problem created by us, the racers.

Everyone was clamouring for BL - level the playing field, no more tweaking motors, no more brushes and skimming, etc. - but they ignored those of us telling you that this would happen. The genie is out of the bottle, it cannot be put back, and there is no way that you can check this at the track.

Everyone is assuming that the AE BD speedo is about timing - it probably isn't. That means they have found something else, and Mamba have too. This is just the start. If the suspicions are true, a BDE with no timing in the speedo would still be faster than the a Novak/Tekin/LRP with no timing.

No one would listen to us when we said that this would happen, and that we needed to keep BR for the lo-cost classes. You've made your bed, have the good grace to lie in it and suffer your discomfort in silence. No one can help you, so you just need to get on with it. Sorry, but that's life...
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:11 PM   #29
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About time everyone sees what im talking about. Roar is too busy worrying about if you have stickers on your car or what tshirt you are wearing. Something needs to be changed and roar is no where to be found. Time to start another sanctioning body. Bypass roar.
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:16 PM   #30
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About time everyone sees what im talking about. Roar is too busy worrying about if you have stickers on your car or what tshirt you are wearing. Something needs to be changed and roar is no where to be found. Time to start another sanctioning body. Bypass roar.
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