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Old 12-17-2009, 09:01 AM   #211
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See, $249. The comparible Tekin was always a little higher so quickly we approach the $300 range. My LHS sold stuff at retail. They went out of business too. The price difference between retail and mail order back then was massive. I remember paying $70 for a Tekin from a LHS and it was the lowest end one they sold. I believe it was rated to handle 6 cells and a 27T motor, and it was the cheapest one of those.

Edit: c'mon let's not start posting the one day something was on sale or the cheapest mail order prices... If you can get something for $150 I win because I could have found somewhere with the same thing for $140. If you went into a retail store 20 years ago and wanted the top end race speed control you better have brought more than two bills with you. And it doesn't count if you were dating the owners daughter and got an inside line on the cheapest price ever. (geez guys)



Most hobby shops do not sell for full retail. There is a huge difference between MSRP and street price. Most people know this. I'm sorry you had or have to pay full MSRP. Really! I paid $175 for my Tekin RS at my hobby shop and that was not on sale...that was the street price. The retail price for an RS is $270. I would NEVER pay full retail. Street price for a Black Diamond LV is $350...that is the issue people are having on the price.

So your out of this world prices you pay make no sense at all...and you paid that 20 years ago is just out of this world ridiculous...sorry.
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:19 AM   #212
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Back onto topic...


It's been suggested before (having a bigger gap of motor type between classes), but why not have 21.5 as a non sponsored class, and 13.5 and 10.5 as ROAR sedan classes?

Anything more than 10.5 for most big(ish) tracks, is probably over kill....
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:23 AM   #213
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I believe it's been posted that ROAR is considering 21.5 motors in t he sportsman class for 2011. The reason they went with 17.5 this year is more people own 17.5 motors already, thereby saving the cost of a new motor.

And if 20 years ago you spent more than $200 on an ESC you were ripped off!
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:29 AM   #214
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maybe part of the problem is the cost of the slower 17.5, 21.5 motors is the same $80-90 as the 3.5-13.5. Back in the good/bad ol' days, stock motors were $28 or $40 while mods went up to double that. Not so anymore.

On the "save the noobs" topic, how you gonna convince a noob to spend modified money to go SLOWER than a silver can? (regardless of whether or not it's for "their own good") Besides, they wanna go fast..

"How much is it?" --- $500
"How fast does it go?" --- 10-15mph
"sweet."

I think we need cheaper "stock" BL motors
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:32 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
I believe it's been posted that ROAR is considering 21.5 motors in t he sportsman class for 2011. The reason they went with 17.5 this year is more people own 17.5 motors already, thereby saving the cost of a new motor.

And if 20 years ago you spent more than $200 on an ESC you were ripped off!

I don't run 17.5 my self but the feedback from most sportsman drivers I know and from what I've observed the speed is not overwhelming them and fast enough that it is enjoyable to race..... The problem I've seen is that some experts joining 17.5 which takes the fun out for some of the sportsman racers
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:33 AM   #216
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maybe part of the problem is the cost of the slower 17.5, 21.5 motors is the same $80-90 as the 3.5-13.5. Back in the good/bad ol' days, stock motors were $28 or $40 while mods went up to double that. Not so anymore.

On the "save the noobs" topic, how you gonna convince a noob to spend modified money to go SLOWER than a silver can? (regardless of whether or not it's for "their own good") Besides, they wanna go fast..

"How much is it?" --- $500
"How fast does it go?" --- 10-15mph
"sweet."

I think we need cheaper stock BL motors (fat chance)
I've wondered why that was the case with brushless. ROAR had price limits on stock and modified. For brushless the price limit is the same no matter what the wind is. I'm sure there's a reason, just not sure what.

It would be cool if 21.5's were like $50 - $60.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:33 AM   #217
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The point I'm trying to make is that the "street price" of a Tekin TSC 411-g2 twenty years ago was around $250 street price (yes the MSRP was much higher) so that is $400 in today money using my vending machine inflation theory. Even though it was completely unnecessary (the cheaper Novak would have done fine, batteries and weight reduction were really where to spend your money) if the guy that usually won at his track ran it then everybody thought they had to have *that* ESC to win. Some things never change.

Come to think of it, the Tekin's were more expensive, regarded as moderately higher quality, and had better specs, but Novak dominated the nationals. Are 6 1200mah SCR cells even be capable of putting out 300 amps? Could it be, one put more money into getting their ESC into more cars at nationals than the other?

There again, some things never change.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:45 AM   #218
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time to turn that dog lose, if you keep beating it, its gonna start stinking.


as far as the price differences between stock and mod brushed motors, wasn't that because stock motors were machine wound and mods were hand wound,

whereas all brushless motors are wound the same and thats why they cost the same.

just a guess
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:17 AM   #219
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time to turn that dog lose, if you keep beating it, its gonna start stinking.


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as far as the price differences between stock and mod brushed motors, wasn't that because stock motors were machine wound and mods were hand wound,

whereas all brushless motors are wound the same and thats why they cost the same.

just a guess
Ahhh you're right...good point! So I guess my question then is why can't brushless motors be machine wound to reduce cost?
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:28 AM   #220
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I am going to chime in here with a "complete newb" perspective. I have 4 races under my belt. 13.5 is too fast, 17.5 is fast enough to be fun. I 'win' every race if my lap times start to go down and my consistency goes up *and* i place higher than the guys who have the same level of experience.

I would get bored going slower and i would break too many parts on my car (and other people's cars) if I had to run < 17.5.

Just one person's view....
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:32 AM   #221
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ABout the timing thing, I guess I just don't know any different so it does not bug me. I guess I just do this for pure fun and relaxation.

(I did pay the price and step up to a Tekin. Still using a $60 AM radio though...I put my money where I get the bene.)
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by liquiddog View Post
You're leaving some things out like batteries, but personally I just flat out like electric better.
I left out nothing, batteries are comparable to nitro fuel. ESC/Motor vs. Engine/servo is really a direct comparison.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:38 AM   #223
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In theory that made it cheaper. Mod motors had adjustable timing, removable end bells, bearings, could be hand wound, and you could select how many winds by replacing the armature. Since you could remove the armature, you could also true the comm on a lathe.

The costs were higher in theory because a lathe is expensive, replacing bearings is expensive, and buying a bunch of hand wound armatures is expensive. Not to mention the sum of all that is confusing to newbies. The advantage was you could rebuild the motor rather than buying a new one, and select the appropriate armature for the track layout.

A stock 27T machine wound non-removable end bell on the other hand was inexpensive compared to buying a mod motor, and you didn't have to worry about truing the comm.

The costs were lower up front. Beginners only had to figure the proper gear ratio, slap it in, maybe put upgraded springs/brushes, oil the bushings, and go. Here's where things get complicated. People would push the motor so hard with aggressive gear ratios that they would overheat them and burn them up. You could gear one so aggressively that you'd have your motor for the main and then that motor would be trash. And you could find exactly where that line was where it wasn't running so hot that performance didn't diminished during most of the run. Even if you weren't racing that way, you couldn't true the comm or replace the bushings. The not being able to true the comm thing was particularly bad because it wouldn't be too long before quality diminished. We all know the deep pockets at the nationals made hand out motors not even for everybody.

I believe they came out with rebuildable 27T motors and that's when you had people removing winds off them and cheating in other ways (at a club race who is really checking to see if you put bearings in it with a washer on top).

I do agree that $80-90 for a motor is a little high. I do wish prices were lower. I just don't believe new rules are going to help that. Time will, just as ESCs haven't escalated in price much over the past few decades and have even gone down (I beat the dog again!) brushless motors will become cheaper to produce and prices will go down. If ROAR enforces a maximum "street price" rule I think it would make it worse because the motors will be forced to be lower quality and we'll have to buy more of them as the burn up.

I can't remember if it was the ROAR magazine or RC Car Action, but one of those two would post results from the nationals in a table and it would include which car, motor, battery, esc, and radio was used. That way, you could know what combination of stuff you needed to get which place! We are all suckers for marketing. I have to remind myself of it constantly so I don't get sucked into buying too many toys.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:47 AM   #224
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I am going to chime in here with a "complete newb" perspective. I have 4 races under my belt. 13.5 is too fast, 17.5 is fast enough to be fun. I 'win' every race if my lap times start to go down and my consistency goes up *and* i place higher than the guys who have the same level of experience.

I would get bored going slower and i would break too many parts on my car (and other people's cars) if I had to run < 17.5.

Just one person's view....
I believe this person's post really brings things into perspective. I was anti-17.5 at my track for a while until I realized exactly what he is saying above.

It's way too much to figure out which is the best motor for the track conditions, so it is set at 17.5. That also keeps newbies from shattering their car and others.

I'd like to see a 13.5 class that you get forced into if you win too much in the 17.5 class, or kicked out of if you crash everybody. Now if we could just get enough people racing one on-road class on any given day to have enough racers for separate sportsman/expert...
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:39 PM   #225
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The only way to compare the true cost of brushed vs brushless would be to break it down to money spent per minutes of track use or races run.

Brushless wins big time as far as i am concerned.
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