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Old 12-16-2009, 06:53 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
This thread started out as a racer asking ROAR to do something about the new speed controls with variable timing rates (or whatever magic they use to go faster). Reading through this thread I think there are 2 concusions.

ROAR cannot do anything with these speed controls. Any rule concerning software would be impossible to enforce.

A majority of racers don't want any restrictions on speed controls. This is what the technology is, and we should go with it. I think I'm in this camp.

As far as an entry level class with spec'ed motors and speedo's, that would have to be done on the local level. Any national organization would have a hard time coming up with rules and enforcing them.

The overlying problem for electric touring car is how do we define the classes? And the first question is rubber tires or foam tires? I would think that a rubber tire class would be cheaper in that you don't have to buy a tire truer.

Potentially you could do 4 classes in TC just based on motor spec: 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and open. If you had foam and rubber for each now that's 8 classes. I propose that along with the motors you also call out the tires. 17.5 and 13.5 would be rubber tire. 10.5 and open would be foam tire.

For this to be solved we need more positive input from racers, not just the ROAR sucks comments.
Nice post.

On of my local clubs had a discussion on bringing back foam tyres at the AGM. And foam tyres had too many points against them to consider doing it.

Foam tyres have pretty much had their day in the UK for sedan., in any class. A few clubs continue to use them with 17.5 and 13.5 but not many.

Plus, there is not enough people racing to make it viable to allow both in the UK.

Classes.

I don't have an answer for regrading them.

But, a local club has recently only offered 13.5 superstock and 17.5 stock as their classes.

10.5 has no place at club level imo, it is more of an organised event speed. Concentrate the spread of classes.

So few people race true "mod" these days, that surely 10.5 would still bode well for these guys?

I know that one of our BRCA National winners likes 10.5 as a class to be in, it's enough motor for him...

keep the input coming
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:54 AM   #182
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And one last thing since i don't think i saw it brought up...

Why not limit stock classes to a certain MPH that can be teched with a radar gun as people are checking in for the timing system?

People can run WHATEVER equipment they want as long as they don't exceed "X" mph on the longest straight. I think a VTA track in Tennessee does something like this.

Once people get tired of the speed limit, they have they equipment to move up to a "Sportsman" or "Super Stock" class. And people with the super fast, super expensive equipment could gear down and work on their setups and driving.

Just a thought since "speed, novices and budget racers" seems to be the issue.
we had something similar to this. We had a breakout for lap times. If you ran a laptime faster than X then it didn't count. Everyone hated it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:58 AM   #183
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I think that onroad does need three classes. Without arguing what motor and battery they should be here they are:

1) Stock. This is the slow class for new racers and the hobby guys that just want to race and have a good time.

2) Superstock. This is the "spec" class that we all know of as stock now. It should be where all of the competitive racers should be.

3) Mod. Pretty much exactly what it is today.

Rubber tire vs. foam needs to be decided by the racers and have it done with. Same thing with the batteries and motors.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:01 AM   #184
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As I am a somewhat OLDER [not better] racer I have seen what can be done to then 'silver' can motors to make them fast!
+1

I know people want to have close racing where the setup is the same, but as soon as you introduce something that can be tuned to have better performance, the racers with the know how will do it, or some company will sell the item tuned (this is happening NOW in Slash class, tuned Titan motors are available for I believe about $40). Old tech isn't the answer, if it was, people wouldn't have been complaining in stock when it was brushed motors, dynos, and lathes.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:12 AM   #185
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ROAR can only do so much. Its up to local tracks to extend the ROAR rules. We do at the track I operate. You have to make rules as you go along, because there is always something or someone that will make you do it.

I think the rules ROAR has in place are fine. People need to just figure it out for themselves.

Like I said before..The fast guys will always be fast, the slow guys will always be slow...
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:14 AM   #186
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I thought it was. My car is faster than DC's on the straights but for some reason he still beats me (by a mile). I just don't get it.
the straight is the shortest part of the track and not where time is made up. The fast guys gear for the infield which is the longest part of the track.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:25 AM   #187
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Guys is racing not about getting best out of machine and man

like if there is an advance in any class of motor sport get with it or get around it
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:33 AM   #188
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the straight is the shortest part of the track and not where time is made up. The fast guys gear for the infield which is the longest part of the track.
Add to that the fact that he can drive and I can't and that would probably explain why he laps me every minute or so in the race.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:20 AM   #189
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simple, too many classes, so do away with all the multiple mod motor classes and just run open-rubber and open-foam classes, and leave stock with handout motors for the new guys and those that run only that class.
Problem is nobody wants to run open, especially on the local level. And I don't blame them, it is harder on parts.

One thing you could do is eliminate 13.5. The speed difference between 17.5 and 10.5 is great enough that the racers would be better separated. Depends on how strong a following 13.5 has.
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:30 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Problem is nobody wants to run open, especially on the local level. And I don't blame them, it is harder on parts.

One thing you could do is eliminate 13.5. The speed difference between 17.5 and 10.5 is great enough that the racers would be better separated. Depends on how strong a following 13.5 has.
You know the more I think of it, especially in large races, 13.5 has become a "spec" mod class. I was at the IIC and Andy Moore and Barry Baker were running 13.5. And I see Barry just won the KO race in 13.5. It seems as if the top level mod racers like running a slower class. So maybe having 10.5 replace 13.5 would be a good idea...? I don't know...something to think about.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:27 AM   #191
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Add to that the fact that he can drive and I can't and that would probably explain why he laps me every minute or so in the race.
You will get there. It just takes time. I used to get lapped every minute by the fast guys. Now it is 0-1 times a heat and I still feel slow compared to them. It's all about staying clean, taking the tightest lines and keeping the corner speed up. All much easier said than done.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:30 AM   #192
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As I am a somewhat OLDER [not better] racer I have seen what can be done to then 'silver' can motors to make them fast!

Many good points but you have to "Get the BIG picture', like what happens to the 'novice/neewbie when he gets PAST the brushed 'stock' steup??

YEP!! you make him spend the $$$ he should have in the beginning, Brushless/Lipo

As a LHS owner I direct our 'newbies' to VTA, 21.5/lipo,
Havoc 21.5=$150
lipo=$80
charger =$70
TC-3/4=$75
tires/wheels/body=$75
yes thats around $500, what would you save with a silver can/nimh that neither will last long?? that you have to replace on a regular basis??

Brushless Lipo is where they need to start, Novak has come out with the 25.5 rotor to help slow them down

There is no way we can predict what the future holds, and our 'sport' changes everyday, and we need to change with it

Thankx, Bill
Point taken.

Maybe i'm not right in my thinking that brushed stuff is the cheapest and easiest to understand, whilst also being considered long life?

Cost against life expectancy is not always easy to get right.

How long will a silver can motor last if it's geared right?

Is it long enough to still be cheaper than one season with a brushless esc/motor if a cheap enough brushed ESC is purchased, yes?

Brushed ESC's and motors that are not new should also be easier to source.

21.5 to 17.5 or 13.5 can still be a big step up though.

If havoc/21.5 works though, then great
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:33 AM   #193
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You will get there. It just takes time. I used to get lapped every minute by the fast guys. Now it is 0-1 times a heat and I still feel slow compared to them. It's all about staying clean, taking the tightest lines and keeping the corner speed up. All much easier said than done.
+1. And good blocking too occasionally, when you don't have enough motor

Pin point accuracy does not happen overnight. And if it does, it needs to be for 5 minutes, not just 5 laps

We've all been there... Some still there.

Practice practice practice, then practice some more!
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:44 AM   #194
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After 13 pages I feel I must toss in my $.02.


This thread has become a long B*&^ session about everything that makes people unhappy about onroad r/c. New tech this, two many classes that, its too fast, you have to buy speed, spec vs. stock vs. sportsman.

People need to pick a topic and figure it out. The start of this thread was about allowing variable timing esc's in spec classes. I first want to say that people need to stop trying to say that spec classes mean that every single component must be spec'ed. That is fine for club racing, but on a national level means monopolizing certain manufactures and killing off everything else so we all lose. Spec simply means that there are certain "spec"ific rules that define the separate classes. In our case the thing that is spec'ed is the turn of the motor.

The 17.5/13.5 classes have been the most competitive classes with closest finishes. Given the closeness of competition the classes are very sensitive to new technologies being faster than old. This means that whoever wants to maintain their top rank, must buy the newer technology. As long as the new tech fits in the rules, there is no problem with what equipment is used. The problem develops when the new tech comes in at outrageous prices. Almost every form of racing has rules in place that are there simply to reduce cost. This is the problem we need to address. The most costly item (esc) on the vehicle happens to be the item that affects overall speed in the biggest way. We are lucky that the most expensive esc available is only $400. It could easily be much much higher. But then the obvious problem is that only a few people could buy it and wallet racing begins. The only fix to this problem is to put a cap on the maximum price allowed for certain components. A price cap will not impede the evolution of new tech, it will just allow everyone to keep racing with the equipment they have until the new "faster" stuff is available for a reasonable price that the majority of racers can afford.


The second issue with the original problem in this thread is banning variable timing esc's because they are too adjustable. A few people have brought this up but I will lay out how I feel. GET OVER IT! Learn how to tune your car to go fast! That is after all why we do this isn't it? Anyone who doesn't want to tune their car to go fast is simply LAZY.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:46 AM   #195
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we had something similar to this. We had a breakout for lap times. If you ran a laptime faster than X then it didn't count. Everyone hated it.
Only when it was set too high......It was adjusted and it was better.
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