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Old 12-15-2009, 10:34 AM   #136
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1. Why does some new beginner think he can/should race the Nationals?

2. How come we aren't arguing that we should have bushings in the motor as those were ALSO part of the sotck specs?
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:37 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
I like the idea of a TC "Slash" class. Would that mean car manufacturers would need to design inexpensive cars (RTR's) that are easy to drive out of the box? Kinda like a TA05 RTR?

What has been nice about the Slash type of trucks is that all of the car makers have stuck to similar designs. What would happen if someone came out with a $400+ full graphite/aluminum/titanium Slash style of truck that is better than the competition. In TC it seems as if that is always the case...
There are cars that are in a RTR form that are pretty cheap for touring, they just didn't start a craze like traxxas did with the slash. If traxxas made a TC slash vehicle, who knows, maybe that would be the catalyst for it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:46 AM   #138
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Listen,

There is nothing wrong with Lipos, the new ESC's, or Brushless motors!

But if were talking about stock class racing the motors are mod motors! Bearing, and adjustible timing are not stock motors and it is not stock racing!

I like the new esc's I don't care, I would like to see the motors changed!

To ROAR: Stop trying to make everyone happy and be consistant in the rules you set down. This is not stock racing, you guys could have seen this from the beginning and made the rules so we wouldn't have had this mess. Some parts of the 27 Turn motor rules could have been adopted, bushings and timing.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:52 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
1. Why does some new beginner think he can/should race the Nationals?

2. How come we aren't arguing that we should have bushings in the motor as those were ALSO part of the sotck specs?

1. because you don't have to qualifiy for nationals

2. bushings are part of the spec for brushed motors, brushless motors have a different set of specs to be considered stock.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:54 AM   #140
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I have been racing a long time and have seen alot of the old "cheats" on the fixed endbell 27 motors. Have run the old 8min races in 12th scale with 1200scr's.

Technology happens.

At our local outdoor parking lot track, certain designs make our 17.5 class faster than our nitro class. We have had some builds in which a 2 day race the 17.5 was the same speed as 13.5, and this was with some very high end factory team drivers.

Fast guys that can set up will always be fast guys regardless of what motor they are running or anything. But, if we implement fixed standards for motors and speed controls, what happens when or if those same fast guys start to break the rules?

From a purely moral standpoint, how fun is it racing with guys that will break rules in order to win? How can one honestly enjoy winning if they have to break the rules in order to do it?

There are about 4-6 drivers I race with locally that beat me easily every time we go race. This year we are entertaining moving to 13.5, and allowing the novice and newer drivers to have the 17.5 class as an advancement from novice. Without the said 4-6 drivers in the 17.5 class I could probably dominate the 17.5, could being the most important word seeing as there are only about 7 of us running in 17.5 right now. My point is this, what would be more fun? Winning in a class that doesn't offer the competition for me to get better? Or racing in a class with better competition in order to make myself a better racer?

Fast guys are fast guys, cheaters are cheaters, haters are haters, and nitro smells bad and is too loud.

Oh that knife fight in the phonebooth line was hilarious.

On road racing is all about speed, how can we get faster. I agree with Rob in that specing the motors and speedos is not the best answer. I agree with Randy in that specing tires might be the best option right now as losing mechanical grip will slow the cars down both in asphalt and especially carpet. Perhaps we can slow them down until the technology shift that is happening will crest and we can begin to level everything back out.

I also agree with the part about the sticker and t-shirt rule is absurd.

I race to have fun. I highly doubt I will be competitive regionally or nationally as I don't have the time or funds to commit to the travel schedule that would necessitate it.

Local tracks for the most part are the ones that will need to come up with workable solutions to the inherent "speed crisis" that we are having right now, as that is where the majority of the racing is going to happen. Without the novice or new drivers advancing from local talent to national level talent, where will our hobby go?
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:04 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
Listen,

There is nothing wrong with Lipos, the new ESC's, or Brushless motors!

But if were talking about stock class racing the motors are mod motors! Bearing, and adjustible timing are not stock motors and it is not stock racing!

I like the new esc's I don't care, I would like to see the motors changed!

To ROAR: Stop trying to make everyone happy and be consistant in the rules you set down. This is not stock racing, you guys could have seen this from the beginning and made the rules so we wouldn't have had this mess. Some parts of the 27 Turn motor rules could have been adopted, bushings and timing.

gijoe,

The brushed type of "stock" class doesn't exist anymore. It is a "spec" class. 17.5 and 13.5. And the rules are made for brushless. Brushless motors are a different animal. If you think bushing will slow down 17.5...ok I'll give you that...but you will still have guys polishing and reaming bushings like they did past to gain an advantage. And the new ESC almost negate the need for timing on the motors. I run a DUO with 0 timing on the motor. I put all my timing in my ESC. So if that became the rule it wouldn't make a difference to me. I understand what you are looking for, but I think you focused on the wrong things...juts my $.02.
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Last edited by PitNamedGordie; 12-15-2009 at 11:07 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:15 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayL View Post
1. Why does some new beginner think he can/should race the Nationals?

2. How come we aren't arguing that we should have bushings in the motor as those were ALSO part of the sotck specs?
1. because you don't have to qualify to go to the nationals or national level events.

2. bushings wear out, and bushings wear out whatever rides in them. I am not purchasing a motor that will wear out in 3 months because some numbnuts thought it was a good idea to have bushings. Bearings aren't the major cost to producing brushless motors. IMO, the next progression in stock brushed motors should have included bearings.

I race 12th scale. The motor that I got at the IIC last year as a hand-out for stock 12th is the same motor that I raced with this year. I raced it all year leading up to the IIC. Had I not made a bad decision on how/when to lap back markers, I would have been in the A main at the IIC. There is no doubt in my mind that it would have been all clapped out if there were bushings installed in it.

BTW, that motor is a locked timing Speed Passion motor. Same sensor board, same rotor, same bearings. The additional cost is not in the motors.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gijoe64 View Post
Listen,

There is nothing wrong with Lipos, the new ESC's, or Brushless motors!

But if were talking about stock class racing the motors are mod motors! Bearing, and adjustible timing are not stock motors and it is not stock racing!

I like the new esc's I don't care, I would like to see the motors changed!

To ROAR: Stop trying to make everyone happy and be consistant in the rules you set down. This is not stock racing, you guys could have seen this from the beginning and made the rules so we wouldn't have had this mess. Some parts of the 27 Turn motor rules could have been adopted, bushings and timing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post
gijoe,

..... And the new ESC almost negate the need for timing on the motors. I run a DUO with 0 timing on the motor. I put all my timing in my ESC. So if that became the rule it wouldn't make a difference to me. I understand what you are looking for, but I think you focused on the wrong things...juts my $.02.
Gijoe64, you're gonna be rich pretty soon. Here's my $.02, motors are worth the last tenth or two, but it's the ESC that's adding the 40-ish degrees of timing! Locking the motor timing won't do anything except make the rest of the motor's specification even more important (like how good the magnet is, how heat resistent it is, etc.)

We're all in agreement that adjustable timing shouldn't have a place in stock racing. However, can it be removed? Is the raw speed the real problem? Would a move to 21.5s in Stock be the quick solution? Frankly, until the ESC war calms down, Stock is going to remain expensive.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:34 AM   #144
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A solution is simple, Just nobody would want it (which suggests that is not a problem with ROAR, but a problem with racers themselves)...

Roar could have a manufacturer make some OEM equipment that would could be purchased through them and be the only equipment that would be legal.

Now, Racers that are honestly interested in a "spec", economy, beginner freindly racing class would see this solution as fair, simple and effective.

Racer's that don't agree would obviously have biased and self-serving interests.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:40 AM   #145
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21.5 isn't exactly a panacea here. There are already complaints about the speeds in VTA racing.

And even with everything the same, people will still find a way to go faster than the next guy with more than just there driving ability. Just the nature of those who like to tinker.

But your idea has merit.

All that can be done is to limit the discrepency as much as possible. You will never fully eliminate it, just like you will never get rid of people complaining about it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:47 AM   #146
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Our Club [OVRCCC] was one of the 1st nationally to allow Brushles in our classes

at that time 13.5 was "SUPPOSED" to be equal to a good 27turn
at that time we were concerned about the costs of the Brushless setup,
[no lipo at that time] for our 'new' racers,
as I am the Local Hobby shop for most of these guyz I, was against the brushless because of FORCING our newer racers to spend $$ when they did not have it or could not afford it,
I was VERY SURPRISED when the very ones I was concerned about were some of the 1st to come in & move up to B/L,

And every racer in this area we have now is trying to go faster, not slower, as it was stated several pages back, the local 'fast guyz' lend a helping hand to those 'newbies', what is the cure?? I don't know but making 'stock' a spec class is NOT the right avenue to take.

Like "lowcel" {Bruce} I am a mid-pack stock racer, I NEVER win, I seldom work on my car, and my results show it,
do I 'B!tch' about it?? No!!
do I complain that the 'fast' guyz need to slow down to my level?? NO!!
What I need to do [if I really wanted to win!] is work on my car, my driving & get serious about it, but I will not do that, I am having fun, and thats why I am in this 'sport'
it is good to have discussions like this, but I guarentee you all that speedo's & motors & cars are going to get faster everyday as racers look for that .01 seconds, heck our 21.5 VTA class runs almost as fast as our 17.5 class WITH a gear limit

Thankx, Bill
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:59 PM   #147
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Stock, by definition, is a spec class.

Stock and modified are obsolete terms and we need to stop using them.

If you look at this thread, there are several arguments going on at the same time. Many of these are arguments that have been hashed out over and over again. The only new twist are the programmable timing speed controls.

I don't think it's possible to regulate the new speed controls. There are too many ways around any restriction you could come up with. To specify a particular make and model part of any kind would be against the spirit of competition. A local track couls have a class that specs motor, speed control, tires, even body, but that would never fly at a national event. Maybe you could at a regional, but you would have to use the host tracks rules.

The bickering has to stop. Some real decisions have to be made. Our hobby is in trouble, and it's going to take all of us to fix it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:06 PM   #148
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TC and road racing needs a class like the Slash Class. The SC Class has revitalized electric offroad and brought so many new people to the sport it's staggering.
Slash was good but when it transitioned to a SC class it is in rapid decline (at least around here). Slash was the ultimate spec class. Nearly everything was a very specific brand and it was dirt cheap. Then everyone came out with a SC truck to compete with the Slash and the rules started to open up and now the class doesn't have nearly the numbers it had when it was just Slash.

The stock TC class doesn't need to be touched. If someone wants a spec class then create it like the people who created VTA attempted to do. F1 seems to be the "slash" class for on-road in a lot of areas. People are specing on at least silver can motors and some even on the specific chassis and batter. F1s are cheap which also makes it like Slash.

Off-road isn't a good representation for on-road though. The lack of traction in off-road makes a lot of things meaningless.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:09 PM   #149
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Stock, by definition, is a spec class.
I think a lot of people use stock to describe components fitting within some parameters from different suppliers. Spec as using very specific components down to the supplier. For example I view the SC class as stock but the Slash class as Spec.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:22 PM   #150
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The only problem is right now we are going thru a period of large gains in speed. This will level off and the gains will be smaller. Then someone will have another brainstorm and it will start all over again.

Lets see, it started back when the 1,200 scr's took over from the 1,200 sc's, then the 1,400's were going to kill the hobby. If that didn't do it the motor that Ernie crammed down ROAR would cause massive meltdown of the racing system. Almost forgot about the shift from closed end bell motors, how can I leave that out.

Anything that comes along to increase the speed or runtime seems ready to plant racing 6 feet under. Yet it survives........... the number that are racing fluctuates, but it survives.
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