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Old 12-11-2009, 01:15 PM   #1
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Default Electric On Road Summit ( Meeting ) < possible ?

With all the new rules changes over the last few years, we have gone from fast to BALLISTIC in the beginners classes, and from Ballistic to almost un drivable in the Mod Class.

While ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR make changes to the rules for the good of the sport, they seem to be disconnected. If we could have a Conference Call every 3 or six months, to try to get everyone on the same page, would this help ?


What kind of experts should be on the working committee ?
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:21 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by TimPotter View Post
With all the new rules changes over the last few years, we have gone from fast to BALLISTIC in the beginners classes, and from Ballistic to almost un drivable in the Mod Class.

While ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR make changes to the rules for the good of the sport, they seem to be disconnected. If we could have a Conference Call every 3 or six months, to try to get everyone on the same page, would this help ?


What kind of experts should be on the working committee ?
Hmm I thought you wanted to convert a traxxas summit to onroad, lol.


I think it's a tough situation, but something is going to have to happen to realign the speeds.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by TimPotter View Post
With all the new rules changes over the last few years, we have gone from fast to BALLISTIC in the beginners classes, and from Ballistic to almost un drivable in the Mod Class.

While ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR make changes to the rules for the good of the sport, they seem to be disconnected. If we could have a Conference Call every 3 or six months, to try to get everyone on the same page, would this help ?


What kind of experts should be on the working committee ?
It won't help. The people on the committees and in charge of making the rules for these organizations are racers, enthusiasts, and manufacturers. What you suggest already happens
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:29 PM   #4
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Rick, while in theory, your are correct, They do not always talk to each other.

I would hazzard to guess not too often. I know first hand how hard it is to get replies on simple subjects from people in this so called Industry....

Thanks for the positive feedback !
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:33 PM   #5
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And I am not talking about a free for all... But a Meeting with a concise agenda, that is recorded, and racers can listen to.

We need to be more professional about this ....
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:55 PM   #6
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Since all the sanctioning bodies that are closely monitored send people to the worlds, is there a chance that the IFMAR competition committee could be asked to sit in on this meeting. My first guess is probably not, since they have nothing to do with spec class racing.

Is it time to forge an international committee to discuss bringing the different sanctioning organizations onto the same page. Maybe have special invitees' to the meeting like Scotty Ernst, Mike Boylan, and other big/international race promoters from around the world that would like to see a global standard that racers can use to gauge themselves against/follow the same rules. Get interested manufacturers' on the side lines for comments on why and how the rules should be pushed in a certain direction (limits and standards that can be measured, and a way to quickly and accurately validate equipment to meet these standards).

Sounds like a dream. However, with the power of the internet, I cannot see why a global conference couldn't be arranged in such a way that, not only is there a conference room with remote attendees, but all interested parties could listen in...
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:28 PM   #7
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Tim, this is a great idea! And, it will never work!

Everyone makes the same assumption that the problem with RC is the race organizations, or the manufacturers. It's not, it's the racers. And the problems we face are a result of competition. Namely, the pursuit of going faster. It's just human nature to want to win, and we will do whatever it takes to win, even if it is for just a bowling trophy.

For any kind of compromise to work, and compromising is what we're talking about here, racers are going to have to understand that it's possible that they're favorite form of RC racing will no longer be available.

Think about the arguments we've seen on RC tech. Rubber tire vs. foam tire. Brushed vs. brushless. Realistic bodies vs. good handling bodies. And the biggest argument of all, what is the true purpose of stock?

We like to consider this a sport. Part of a sport is sportsmanship. That means doing what's good for the hobby is more important than what is good for us, from time to time.

It's the racers that have to change before any other change will become useful.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:45 PM   #8
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Jim, those are thoughts that need to be discussed too...
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:23 PM   #9
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Just throwing this out there. Maybe looking at things from a national or world perspective is what is holding the hobby back? Maybe we just need to focus on things at the local level / regional level. When I can race more people in my class at a club race at my track than are registered in the same class at the nationals then that is pretty telling. Let ROAR, IFMAR, etc do what they want to host the <5% of hobbyists that race at those type events.

For example, it seems a lot of us feel 21.5 should be the stock class motor. What is keeping us from doing that at our home tracks? I guess the feeling that we "have to follow what ROAR does"... but do we?

I dunno, like I said I'm just throwing this out there. I may be way out in left field.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:37 PM   #10
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I think Orbital makes a good point.

Where and when do the majority of racers race their cars?

Is the local scene more important than the "BIG" races?

Should emphasis be put on retaining the current racer or drawing in new blood?

Seems with all the new technology improving speeds and run times should racing be revamped entirely?

Some serious discussions need to be had. Kudos to you Tim and good luck!!
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:37 PM   #11
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Tim, just one sportsman level racers opinion. Rick, Jim and you are all correct in one way or another. At the organizational level there needs to be a better focus...I don't necessarily believe that manufacturers offer the best input. Manufacturers produce..racers buy...they will always buy if theres a percieved need. If the racing program allows a wide variety of options, then there will always be racers who will buy at that level....and others who can't. With that disparity the have's will continue and the have nots will most likely bail. The rules for each class need to be more regulated. Technology is out pacing our primary need.....drivers. There needs to be a good variety of classes that will work with the changing tech pace. The problem ??.....tech and manufacturing aren't cheap...and there's only so many buyers....the manufacturers NEED to sell to as many of us that will buy sooooo...the rules are too broad which goes right back to the haves and have nots and the cycle repeats every time the newest performance electronics come out that fall within the "rules".
On the other hand...technology moves forward and as long as there's a 'NEED" for less technology, manufacturers will continue producing at the lower level. The fact is that there may be a necessity to limit how many manufacturers can be allowed. Not to alienate any particular company but simply to create and perpetuate a user base. There is no way that every electronics company out there could afford to produce or continue lesser performance gear for the minority of drivers that make up that base. For that concession the possibility would be a larger user base at the intermediate to advanced levels. At that point the now larger driver base is fully vested in the hobby and can proceed at whatever speed they want....within the confines of the rules. Me personally....I believe the rules shouldnt be so broad based until the advanced level is reached. If you're racing stock...then there should be tighter regulations for allowable equipment. Same for intermediate. Racers only want to go faster if they think there's a reason for it. If 100 other guys are racing stock class with a specified type of gear, then there's no "NEED" for them to want for that new,high tech esc that might provide some advantage AND no room in the regs for it. If they want it that bad....race at a higher class.

Last edited by Evoracer; 12-12-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Just throwing this out there. Maybe looking at things from a national or world perspective is what is holding the hobby back? Maybe we just need to focus on things at the local level / regional level. When I can race more people in my class at a club race at my track than are registered in the same class at the nationals then that is pretty telling. Let ROAR, IFMAR, etc do what they want to host the <5% of hobbyists that race at those type events.

For example, it seems a lot of us feel 21.5 should be the stock class motor. What is keeping us from doing that at our home tracks? I guess the feeling that we "have to follow what ROAR does"... but do we?

I dunno, like I said I'm just throwing this out there. I may be way out in left field.
I don't think you're too far out. It's the local level that's been completely forgotten, and that's the backbone of the hobby.

ROAR's purspose is not to hold national events. ROAR's purpose is to come up with a set of rules every local track can follow. And there was to be a ladder system of sorts that went local, state, regional, national. Only the national events get any sort of attention.

Remember before ROAR made the decision of what brushless motor was the stock equivalent, most on road racers thought 13.5 was a stock motor.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:31 AM   #13
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"Stock" sedan racing is going to die out soon if prices are not capped.

Brushless motors are getting faster and faster, ESC's are getting more advanced.

Im not going to point the finger at anyone, but something needs to be done, by who, well, it's a joint effort.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:45 PM   #14
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Tim, the answer is somewhat simple, but maybe not what everybody wants to hear. To make RC racing sane and affordable, which is MOST necessary for the growth of the sport, we only need to look at the huge turnouts at TCS races, the new growth of RCGT, and the continued support of USVTA.

In my opinion, and this is coming from a new participant, all that is needed is to make ROAR, EFRA and IFMAR inconsequential. In the shooting sports we had a large governing body that didn't listen to the 90% of the membership that MADE that sport what it was. Five people left, formed a new shooting discipline, and it thrived while the other one dwindled. After a few years of growth for the new upstart group and continued spiraling losses of the old guard, the old guard finally decided to make some changes.

Yes, speed is what everybody wants. When I first showed up at an on road track and saw guys flying around with their $1500 cars with 10.5s, I figured I can always just stick to golf. But I found Porsche Cup with spec racing that made sense. Was it slow? For guys with too much ego and self-importance, yes. And the "No turn marshals" rule where if you flip you are out of the race? The majority hated that, but the racers who participated LOVED it. There was actually track courtesy, no hacking(unless I was driving, but trust me it was accidental...), giving up the inside line if the other car was already there. Top speed? Between 22mph and 28mph, depending on gearing, all run with a plain silver can motor. I had less than $450 into my Porsche Cup car.....exactly what RCGT is allowing, USVTA is doing with 21.5s, TCS is doing with their spec class divisions.

Speed is relative......5 cars battling door to door is just as exciting for the racer at 25mph as it is for the spectators. Someone in that crowd might actually think to themselves how they would love to try this.....

Tell a spectator that your car with the 8.5 BL doing 50+mph that you have $2000 into including your NASA supplied set up and tweak stations, computer control station and boxes of spare parts for the total rebuild if you hit the backstraight board at full speed......is he excited to out the next day and drop that money to get in? Ummmm....no.

I know I am a nobody, but my experiences in the shooting sports might be way more extensive than most here in RC racing, and it really is the same thing. In the shooting sports, if you want to run a $3000 race gun against me with a stock Glock, go ahead. It is fun when I kick their ass.....

I love the idea of RC racing, and I will be running in RCGT....and in USVTA if a track down here had it. I would love to participate in TCS racing as well, but for now, RCGT will be all that I will play with. I will shut up now. LOL
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Old 12-12-2009, 04:13 PM   #15
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Mr Potter, with your intentions of carrying out major rules and/or class revisions for on-road, do you plan on inviting the off-road crowd to participate also?

Please do remember that off-road lives by the same motor and class rules and they do make up the majority of RC racing.
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