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Old 11-22-2009, 08:19 AM   #46
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[QUOTE=odpurple;6628600]Honestly, this is a stupid discussion. Timing advance speed controls were made for spec classes. You don't need them in modified racing. They are just a way to make spec motors faster.[QUOTE]

Which negates the point of a motor spec in the first place which is to prevent a class from getting faster..
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post

[...]

The problem is: racers who have already invested in expensive electronics really don't want a level playing field, or to reliquish their advantage.
Wrong. I have voluntarily given up using my Tekin system in my class when I realised it was not fair to the other racers.

I think you will find that people who rely on the superiority of their technology to win races are just deluding themselves into believing they are good drivers. Sooner or later they find out that a good driver will beat them any day with old technology.

About stock or spec classes I think they just have to evolve with the technology. At the moment this is difficult because the technology evolves too fast but I don't think this will last forever. We just have to try to understand the technology better and find what can be controlled without limiting the parameters people want to keep (adjustability, the capacity of their systems to run different classes, etc).

Which leaves only one problem of spec/stock racing and that is keeping it cheap. This is I think a core problem and the most difficult to find a solution for. I think prices might start to fall when the technology arrives at its peak and becomes commonplace, but this is just one component of the possible price drop. Another comes from its desirability to the market and here I think a price drop can only happen when it will not make much difference whether you buy speedo/motor X or Y. Manufacturers on the other hand want to convince us of the exact contrary, namely that you can win only if you buy X and not Y. At the moment I am not convinced such a recipe for success exists but market perceptions might be different. Not sure what the solution is here either, but I don't think trying to constrain access to technology will ever fix anything especially since the battle is moving into the computing room. As I said elsewhere, my belief is that manufacturers who make the latest technology available to the market in its most adjustable form are helping move the battle back on the track by placing the controls in the drivers' hands rather than the software engineer. Timing boost is just one of these controls.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:26 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
It seems with this new technology that a given wind motor (13.5t, 17.5t, etc.) is no longer a common ground. Just when we had true, controllable spec horsepower with lipo and BL we now have power disparities between those who have $200 speed controls and those who don't. This new technology has it's place for sure but should it be legal in all stock classes, whose purpose was to keep the playing field level and less expensive?
The problem with this whole argument is that all new "racing" speed controls have these timing adjustments. So for all of us who have these ESC's we will now be forced to "downgrade"?? I'm not sure that stock was ever supposed to be cheaper. I think that is a misconception. If that was the case why would anyone want to run a $500 Xray in the stock class if it is supposed to cheaper. I can make that same areguemt that is someone was running a TC3 vs. a Tamiya 416...those aren't even close to being equal. I can make this argument for almost all of the equipment used in spec racing.

The level playing field that many try to speak of doesn't exist. Not sure it ever has. There can be a class created for this...one chassis, one esc, one battery, etc. If that is what people want then they should use their efforts to create one. I think VTA has tried to come close to this already. But to try to outlaw new technology in any kind of racing will be an exercise in futility.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:35 AM   #49
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For the guys that want to spec out a class you have one it is called beginner or novice.

Here is your definition

novice [ˈnɒvɪs]
n
1.
a. a person who is new to or inexperienced in a certain task, situation, etc.; beginner; tyro
b. (as modifier) novice driver

If you can not handle the new technology, or the older then this is your class.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:44 AM   #50
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You could eliminate a spec speed control by using a spec rubber tire. If you're limited on traction, you're limited on how much HP you can use. Just ask the off road guys.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
You could eliminate a spec speed control by using a spec rubber tire. If you're limited on traction, you're limited on how much HP you can use. Just ask the off road guys.
well just eliminate spec racing all together.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:10 AM   #52
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Not all racers who want a true spec class are novice.So putting a upper level driver in a novice class is not fair to novice!I agree with Novak Two

[Originally Posted by NovakTwo

[...]

The problem is: racers who have already invested in expensive electronics really don't want a level playing field, or to reliquish their advantage
.

The upper tier racers alway's spend the money to get a advantage and will buy what's ever necesarry to get a advantage and don't want to give up their advantage over the average racer!In all reallity (ALOT not ALL) competitive die hard racers want a advantage at what ever cost over the fellow competitor and in retrospect DON"T WANT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!!!!They are the ones intimidated bye eqaul playing field!

Then they all claim work on your set-up and driving because they don't want to give up their advantage!I have raced for 25 years and won alot of races but get tired of buying the newest thing out all the time to stay competitive just because of technologey and thats why Spec/Stock racing should keep technolegy to it's place!

QUOTE=dodgeguy;6629517]For the guys that want to spec out a class you have one it is called beginner or novice.

Here is your definition

novice [ˈnɒvɪs]
n
1.
a. a person who is new to or inexperienced in a certain task, situation, etc.; beginner; tyro
b. (as modifier) novice driver

If you can not handle the new technology, or the older then this is your class.[/QUOTE]
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Last edited by 37 RACING; 11-22-2009 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by 37 RACING View Post
Not all racers who want a true spec class are novice.So putting a upper level driver in a novice class is not fair to novice!I agree with Novak Two

[Originally Posted by NovakTwo

[...]

The problem is: racers who have already invested in expensive electronics really don't want a level playing field, or to reliquish their advantage
.

The upper tier racers alway's spend the money to get a advantage and will buy what's ever necesarry to get a advantage and don't want to give up their advantage over the average racer!In all reallity (ALOT not ALL) competitive die hard racers want a advantage at what ever cost over the fellow competitor and in retrospect DON"T WANT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD!!!!They are the ones intimidated bye eqaul playing field!

Then they all claim work on your set-up and driving because they don't want to give up their advantage!I have raced for 25 years and won alot of races but get tired of buying the newest thing out all the time to stay competitive just because of technologey and thats why Spec/Stock racing should keep technolegy to it's place!

QUOTE=dodgeguy;6629517]For the guys that want to spec out a class you have one it is called beginner or novice.

Here is your definition

novice [ˈnɒvɪs]
n
1.
a. a person who is new to or inexperienced in a certain task, situation, etc.; beginner; tyro
b. (as modifier) novice driver

If you can not handle the new technology, or the older then this is your class.
[/QUOTE]


+1. The thing I find funny about some of the racers at our club is the guys that complain the most about buying a 200.00 esc is the same guy that blows 300.00/ month on cigs and 400/month on alcohol. some people are seriously lame.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:30 PM   #54
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[quote=WIITA;6629745]
Quote:


+1. The thing I find funny about some of the racers at our club is the guys that complain the most about buying a 200.00 esc is the same guy that blows 300.00/ month on cigs and 400/month on alcohol. some people are seriously lame.
puhahah good one

I may add one more, the guys that complain the most about buying a 200.00 esc is the same guy that blows on all that Bling bling aluminium hopped up parts for $$$.$$ on just about every release.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:32 PM   #55
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they also complain about the $200 esc but have the $500 touring car.
why not get a cheaper car then the cost of the esc will not hurt as much.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
Manufacturers would provide controllers for Spec racing, designed according to certain established guidelines.

Any manufacturer who violates this agreement would be banned from selling these Spec controllers.

Pretty simple, really.
There are a couple problems with that statement...first off that would exclude any new drivers who happened to buy the wrong ESC before they started racing and force them to buy a new one when they did. The second is in a combination of teching and manufacturing. Eventually you would see manufacturers making ESCs with hidden profiles that can be disabled at the radio prior to tech inspection.

These are exactly what happened in the paintball industry when they went to electronic triggers and what I had warned about early in the BL debate. At the time people said that wouldn't happen in our industry...well it has.

Backyard bashers aren't going to be buying spec ESCs for playing around. They are going to buy the most powerful ESC and motor combination they can get. Now when they decide to come racing they'll be willing to change motor usually but not motor and ESC. So the people who end up racing a spec class will be the better racers that have the money to buy another ESC and not the group of people the class is intended to benefit.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:37 PM   #57
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Racing in the stock class now is closer than I ever remember it in the brushed motor days.
I agree...even with all the fancy timing stuff stock is still much closer racing than it was back with brushed and round cells. Sure not all BL motors and LiPo batteries are equal...but the disparity between an average pack and an awesome pack (or motor) is much smaller than the disparity was with brushed and round cells.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:42 PM   #58
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You never had to get every new speed control. Until BL came out I ran the same 1st gen Cyclone for 10 years, never had an issue or saw any advantage to any of the newer stuff.
And you don't have to now either so long as you get an ESC that has update-able software. As more manufacturers start building update-able ESCs you will see less and less people having to buy new ESCs. We're just barely at the first year of BL and LiPo and things are already starting to level out, something that never happened with brushed and round cells.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:46 PM   #59
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Honestly, this is a stupid discussion. Timing advance speed controls were made for spec classes. You don't need them in modified racing. They are just a way to make spec motors faster. In mod you just bolt in a faster motor. I know drivers who prefer the SPX over the SXX even in mod because they say it is smoother, but it doesn't have anything to do with making the car faster
This made me chuckle...this is right on OD!
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:59 PM   #60
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i think it should be allowed
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