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Old 11-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #16
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Stock class has changed with bl
no longer is it a fixed timing motor like the old brushed
and now with the timing advance/boost it's even more so like mod

IMO it's lost it's spec rulings a tad as a fuzzy area it's jus the winds that keep it a stock class other than that it seems open game
rules seemed tighter before no bearings no adjustable timing on end bells etc
an all armatures were visable with an identifyable marking for easy scrutineering
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:42 PM   #17
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even with the brushed motors how many novak esc's did we go thru, don't remember all the names, but my first was a cyclone with a purple label, then you had to get the green label, then the green label with the TC on it, not to mention the other manufactors esc's, oh and lets not get on the brushes, and secrect soaking mixtures and the differenct springs with a special little kink in it. on and on..... stock was never stock.
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Old 11-21-2009, 02:44 PM   #18
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... stock was never stock.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:18 PM   #19
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At almost all my local tracks everyone runs the tekin rs we all are differently spread out because it is simply the driver. People should learn how to use there stuff better and get used to it. If a guy is faster on the strait and he has a tekin and your better in the infield and you have a havok just means one is better in different places on the track. I used to run a havok in TA over half the summer and was just as fast as most of the guys. If you have a problem with a manufacture and are slow go buy a tekin, Lrp, Crc than you will see there is not that much of a difference.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:26 PM   #20
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even with the brushed motors how many novak esc's did we go thru, don't remember all the names, but my first was a cyclone with a purple label, then you had to get the green label, then the green label with the TC on it, not to mention the other manufactors esc's, stock was never stock.
You never had to get every new speed control. Until BL came out I ran the same 1st gen Cyclone for 10 years, never had an issue or saw any advantage to any of the newer stuff.

I think the new timing features is a different animal though. It's a great technology but once again, the companies that make the equipment have found a way to make it expensive to be competitive.

To the poster that doesn't think all lipos and BL motors are created equal, fair enough, but these two pieces are far closer to that ideal now than they ever have been in the history of the hobby. I have been here since the beginning, watching stock class racing get turned into something other than it was intended to be over and over again.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:28 PM   #21
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Racing in the stock class now is closer than I ever remember it in the brushed motor days.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:30 PM   #22
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Brushed speed controllers offered many different adjustments such as drive and brake frequency. We also had motors that had different amounts of fixed timing in them. The current crop of speed controllers are offering this same type of adjustment, however it is now more noticeable than with the brushed motors we were running before, because of the way they produce power compared to their brushed counterparts.

I think that the issue we face with brushless technology is that because the technology is new for racing there are many areas of performance that manufactures are exploring, since there is little that can be tuned on brushless motor compared to it's brushed counterpart we are seeing the configuration changes happen at the speed controller rather than the motor.

I think that it is important we encourage manufactures to push the limits as it allows us see the performance that our race systems are capable of. Asking speed controller manufactures to not produce better equipment is analogous to asking car manufactures to not to create better handling vehicles because they are an unfair advantage to the current crop of cars on the market.

I can understand that it is rather frustrating to see speed controllers become "out of date" so quickly, however I also think that companies like Tekin and Castle have done it right. Perhaps what we should look at is how can we a consumers use our collective voice to tell manufactures that what we want are speed controllers that we can update ourselves vice having to buy hardware that is not out of date, but merely needs a firmware update.

Thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:40 PM   #23
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Racing in the stock class now is closer than I ever remember it in the brushed motor days.
Absolutely. This is why I raised the question.

I am not calling for the abolition of the high tech speed control, just proposing the idea that there should be a "real" racing class with decent performance and level playing field technology rules. This is the goal of any motor limited racing class.

Stock electric racing was all but dead before brushless because it was more expensive to run than modified but modified was too fast for newer drivers to learn to race in. We now have a laundry list of under participated classes that's continuing to grow because every time a new stock/spec class comes out it gets blown up into something different within 6 months (remember when TC racing started?) all without adding any value to racing or the businesses that host it.

It's been frustrating to watch this same mistake happen over and over for the last 25 years.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:46 PM   #24
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yes the esc with the boost/timing has been and still should be legal.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:01 PM   #25
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Manufacturers would provide controllers for Spec racing, designed according to certain established guidelines.

Any manufacturer who violates this agreement would be banned from selling these Spec controllers.

Pretty simple, really.
Wouldn't the better solution be to provide a motor that has a bonded rotor in it. When we think back to what the motors acted like back then they were very different. Bonded rotors were failing left and right which was not good for the people who wanted to make them faster, but now you have guys who want to eliminate advanced timing and large gearing, etc. I think a bonded motor spec class would be the cheapest way to do it. Having the latest bells in whistles in your speedo would do you no good if you got the rotor hot and it failed on you.

I would only hope that this would be done for one class, a spec class at the local level at that. If it caught on at the national level then I hope it would eliminate a class. I still think that one of are biggest issues right now is having too many classes with very small entries in them. It really makes you wonder what value making an A main means when everyone at the track is in one themselves.

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Old 11-21-2009, 04:03 PM   #26
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definitely no to bonded rotors. Less durable products are never the answer.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by JSeay View Post
Brushed speed controllers offered many different adjustments such as drive and brake frequency. We also had motors that had different amounts of fixed timing in them. The current crop of speed controllers are offering this same type of adjustment, however it is now more noticeable than with the brushed motors

I think that the issue we face with brushless technology is that because the technology is new for racing there are many areas of performance that manufactures are exploring

I think that it is important we encourage manufactures to push the limits

Thoughts?
Word up. IMO it gets to be a slippery slope in VTA. This is our Slash class along with (I hope) F1 so we should be a bit mindful of the purpose for these classes, competitive racing for out of date chassis' and electronics. Now you have guys with T3's and Tekins' and a 50c lipo pack dressed as 69 Camaros and that cuts at the purpose of the exercise.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:09 PM   #28
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All of the top speed controls offer some sort of timing boost, whether they call it turbo or not. If Tekin comes out with new software that makes the increase more linear and stops calling it turbo, should that be illegal? Everyone at my track runs the RS and there are always a couple of guys with computers that are willing to assist with changes. Stop calling it STOCK also. The rules shouldn't separate the drivers, the qualifying should.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:13 PM   #29
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definitely no to bonded rotors. Less durable products are never the answer.
If your trying to limit power than why not? I have no interest in it but for someone like DavidKa in a spec racing series why not. Example would be a dude shows up with his TC and tries to enter the class, He has his Tekin with Vegas 200 in it. His fellow racers tell him that his Spec motor from Novak has a bonded rotor. He says "SO". He then proceeds to gear it like it had a sintered motor in it with a 3.4 to 1 ratio. 4 minutes into his TQ run, smoke billows out of it and he's off the track with a DNF. Everyone who would have seen that run would now know for sure that motors limits. And that appears to be what these racers might be looking for.

For me personally, bring on the technology, let me have a sintered rotor and a new speed controll profile. That's what I like, but we are not all the same. I know in my area, probably 1/3rd of the racers would probably move towards a slower type class.

It's just something to think about at least. You said it yourself you didn't think enough people would want a very limited speed controller that couldn't be used in any other "normal" classes.

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Old 11-21-2009, 04:15 PM   #30
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All of the top speed controls offer some sort of timing boost, whether they call it turbo or not. If Tekin comes out with new software that makes the increase more linear and stops calling it turbo, should that be illegal? Everyone at my track runs the RS and there are always a couple of guys with computers that are willing to assist with changes. Stop calling it STOCK also. The rules shouldn't separate the drivers, the qualifying should.
Good call, I would not consider calling 17.5 a stock class. It is a spec motor racing class along with 13.5 super stock. Until ROAR defines a true stock class and tracks adopt this we do not have a stock spec class. If your local track wants to limit esc's to make racing a lower cost that is great.
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