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Old 01-21-2010, 09:10 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by mac853 View Post
Could anybody tell me, is possible to be little bit cooler if run the X12 13.5 with negative timing?
I don't mind run negative timing, in fact i will using run with coming soon SXX stock spec then i will probably run the X12 with 12mm rotor, in fact our race rules has to restriction in any modification of the motor.

Best regards
Yes the motor will run a lot cooler with the 4 dot insert. One thing a lot of guys dont realize is even with the 4dot insert (-10) the motor still has about 28-30 degrees of timing. So your not really running retarded timing. It just has a lot built into the design. Dont be afraid to push 200F with them. They will take it. Ive seen them a LOT higher and still live!

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Old 01-21-2010, 09:24 PM   #197
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Anyone running the X12 17.5 with a Ko BMC VFS-1.5? Looking for a little more insight on getting some top end out of the motor. My gearing (6 minute rubber tire/TC with final drive around 4.8) produces temps between 180-190 degrees with the timing on the motor untouched. I get pulled a few feet at the end of the straight by the Tekins, but i have tons of infield punch.

I can go into more detail on speedo setup if anyone is running the VFS-1.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:01 PM   #198
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I'd sure like to try this motor with the Tekin and some ESC timing. Is there anything we can do to allow for that without melting down?
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:21 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Yes the motor will run a lot cooler with the 4 dot insert. One thing a lot of guys dont realize is even with the 4dot insert (-10) the motor still has about 28-30 degrees of timing. So your not really running retarded timing. It just has a lot built into the design. Dont be afraid to push 200F with them. They will take it. Ive seen them a LOT higher and still live!

EA
In fact my starting idea is in favor of new ESC, since SXX stock spec will provide great power for the stock motors.
I guess, if physical advance timing will cause more overheat than software profile, that's what i heard here, so i decide try to put motor itself in -10 and then try using higher profile than normal recommend of ESC.
And i am also looking for putting 3 fans, 2 for motor and other for ESC, with supply of a extra RX battery, instead just main battery, with fan controller of MM of picture below.

Isn't possible working well?

Best regards
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LRP Vector X12 StockSpec and SXX stockspec-mr-fcs2.jpg  
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Old 01-22-2010, 12:52 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
I'd sure like to try this motor with the Tekin and some ESC timing. Is there anything we can do to allow for that without melting down?
Sure there must be a way .. But the X12 stock spec series and the SXX Stock spec speedo are designed to work together perfectly, so it's going to be hard to beat that. That's what I think is the main difference between LRP and let's say Tekin and Speed Passion.

Tekin and SP make very good speedo's and motors, don't get me wrong on that. But I think LRP is one step ahead on fine tuning the speedo and the motor together. Which means the combination SXX speedo + X12 motor is just lethal

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac853 View Post
In fact my starting idea is in favor of new ESC, since SXX stock spec will provide great power for the stock motors.
I guess, if physical advance timing will cause more overheat than software profile, that's what i heard here, so i decide try to put motor itself in -10 and then try using higher profile than normal recommend of ESC.
And i am also looking for putting 3 fans, 2 for motor and other for ESC, with supply of a extra RX battery, instead just main battery, with fan controller of MM of picture below.

Isn't possible working well?

Best regards
You could try a higher profile, but the profiles specified in the manual are recommended for a reason. That's what they work best on. So when using the ESC timing suggested in the manual, with the standard timing of the motor will give you the best combination of speedo and motor. That will work better than changing the motor timing and the speedo timing.

And when you want to keep you motor a bit cooler here's a tip.

Use the Much More Motor Cooler before the race:


And during the race a single motorcooler would be enough. You don't really need the complete set with fan controller and everything. It will just make the car heavier, and with most races extra receiver/cooler batteries aren't even allowed anymore.

Like EAMotorsports said.. I've seen them around 100C / 210 F a lot of times without problems. That's the advantage of the stronger magnets. As you might know magnets tend to be less powerful when they get hot. But still than the power of the magnets is equal to the power of the magnets of another motor before the start of the heat
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:28 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Thomson View Post
Sure there must be a way .. But the X12 stock spec series and the SXX Stock spec speedo are designed to work together perfectly, so it's going to be hard to beat that. That's what I think is the main difference between LRP and let's say Tekin and Speed Passion.

Tekin and SP make very good speedo's and motors, don't get me wrong on that. But I think LRP is one step ahead on fine tuning the speedo and the motor together. Which means the combination SXX speedo + X12 motor is just lethal



You could try a higher profile, but the profiles specified in the manual are recommended for a reason. That's what they work best on. So when using the ESC timing suggested in the manual, with the standard timing of the motor will give you the best combination of speedo and motor. That will work better than changing the motor timing and the speedo timing.

And when you want to keep you motor a bit cooler here's a tip.

Use the Much More Motor Cooler before the race:


And during the race a single motorcooler would be enough. You don't really need the complete set with fan controller and everything. It will just make the car heavier, and with most races extra receiver/cooler batteries aren't even allowed anymore.

Like EAMotorsports said.. I've seen them around 100C / 210 F a lot of times without problems. That's the advantage of the stronger magnets. As you might know magnets tend to be less powerful when they get hot. But still than the power of the magnets is equal to the power of the magnets of another motor before the start of the heat
My problem of overheat is not only the magnet will become weak, in fact i have melted before a sensorless motor, due the over gearing without using fan. In fact i am living in asia zone with averagely hot and humid weather.

That's why i have the motive for using dual fan controller, and luckily in rules sheet haven't tell nothing about the matter of you using extra battery pack for supplying power on anywhere instead directly to main power of ESC, but this is what happened at least in last season, until today i don't receive any information of changing rules, so i have to using it carefully, just show it in race day, for the guys don't change the rules suddenly.
But the matter of overweight is unavoidable, in fact my car has already 1520G.
About that motor cooler as you recommended, i am doubt if is really worth in my case, due time between from put the car in the grid to start the main session, it always worth us almost 5 minutes, and the floor has always more than 30 Celsius, so the motor are getting warmer before the start session.

The same situation in rules has also in the motor, never say not to changing stock rotor, the only restriction is just any motor could not be over 3100KV, then nothing more.
I think to change 12mm rotor could be a good solution, in fact all guys which are using sensorless 3000KV have using already smaller rotors, and the track is highspeed type.
About the idea of motor using negative timing then put the higher profile in ESC, after i have read your suggestion to convince just keeping follow as the manuals say, then makes me the undecision to do it or not. Maybe i will test this 2 solutions before, of course with a thermometer on stand by, then lately make switching by myself.

Thanks for reply!

Last edited by mac853; 01-22-2010 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 01-22-2010, 02:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by mac853 View Post
My problem of overheat is not only the magnet will become weak, in fact i have melted before a sensorless motor, due the over gearing without using fan. In fact i am living in asia zone with averagely hot and humid weather.

That's why i have the motive for using dual fan controller, and luckily in rules sheet haven't tell nothing about the matter of you using extra battery pack for supplying power on anywhere instead directly to main power of ESC, but this is what happened at least in last season, until today i don't receive any information of changing rules, so i have to using it carefully, just show it in race day, for the guys don't change the rules suddenly.
But the matter of overweight is unavoidable, in fact my car has already 1520G.
About that motor cooler as you recommended, i am doubt if is really worth in my case, due time between from put the car in the grid to start the main session, it always worth us almost 5 minutes, and the floor has always more than 30 Celsius, so the motor are getting warmer before the start session.

The same situation in rules has also in the motor, never say not to changing stock rotor, the only restriction is just any motor could not be over 3100KV, then nothing more.
I think to change 12mm rotor could be a good solution, in fact all guys which are using sensorless 3000KV have using already smaller rotors, and the track is highspeed type.
About the idea of motor using negative timing then put the higher profile in ESC, after i have read your suggestion to convince just keeping follow as the manuals say, then makes me the undecision to do it or not. Maybe i will test this 2 solutions before, of course with a thermometer on stand by, then lately make switching by myself.

Thanks for reply!
Are you racing with 6 cells NIMH? That your car is 1520g. Normally a car with lipo or 5 cell nimh is possible under 1400g.

The motor cooler really works. When I use it the motor gets all icy, and it won't heat back to atmosphere temperature in 5 minutes, trust me. When you put it on in time and the more can cool long enough the motor will stay extremely cold untill you race.

About changing the timing, you can try but I don't think it well help you. The LRP motor and speedo are setup in such a way that they are on top of their efficiency. When you change the timing on motor and speedo you will always drop in efficiency making your motor heat up earlier (unless you decide to decrease in such a matter that you will make the car go slower).

Are you sure your gearing is okay? When weight and rules aren't a problem you can use the fan and everything. But the best way to solve a problem is try to find out what causes it and stop it at the source. Prevent the problem from happening, not lowering the effects the problem causes.

Good luck with it!
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Old 01-22-2010, 03:38 AM   #203
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Lowering the timing on the motor (e.g. changing from insert "oo" to "ooo" or "oooo") will of course lower the motor temperature, but you sacrifise power in higher rpm range slightly and may need to alter gearing to reach enough topspeed again.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:29 AM   #204
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So did the SXX StockSpec really ship to the USA earlier this week?
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:03 AM   #205
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So did the SXX StockSpec really ship to the USA earlier this week?
Yup, my lhs says they will be at their distributor end of January (~28th). I already pre-paid for mine!
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:10 PM   #206
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oh boy oh boy! Getting closer to that arrival date!
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:10 PM   #207
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oh boy oh boy! Getting closer to that arrival date!

my car is SITTING here... spot reserved for it!

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Old 01-23-2010, 06:11 PM   #208
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oh boy oh boy! Getting closer to that arrival date!

my car is SITTING here... spot reserved for it!

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Old 01-23-2010, 07:34 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Thomson View Post
Are you racing with 6 cells NIMH? That your car is 1520g. Normally a car with lipo or 5 cell nimh is possible under 1400g.

The motor cooler really works. When I use it the motor gets all icy, and it won't heat back to atmosphere temperature in 5 minutes, trust me. When you put it on in time and the more can cool long enough the motor will stay extremely cold untill you race.

About changing the timing, you can try but I don't think it well help you. The LRP motor and speedo are setup in such a way that they are on top of their efficiency. When you change the timing on motor and speedo you will always drop in efficiency making your motor heat up earlier (unless you decide to decrease in such a matter that you will make the car go slower).

Are you sure your gearing is okay? When weight and rules aren't a problem you can use the fan and everything. But the best way to solve a problem is try to find out what causes it and stop it at the source. Prevent the problem from happening, not lowering the effects the problem causes.

Good luck with it!
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Originally Posted by burito View Post
Lowering the timing on the motor (e.g. changing from insert "oo" to "ooo" or "oooo") will of course lower the motor temperature, but you sacrifise power in higher rpm range slightly and may need to alter gearing to reach enough topspeed again.
For booth Burito and Mr Thomson:
My ideas are from that kind of rules, since i could use 12mm partnered with new sxx stock spec which could probably gain more RPM to help from my decreasing if i run with negative timing, since i want to run the motor with lower temperature or delaying of increasing temperature.
But after from your reply, i saw could not possibly be the best solution, as you said, the car don't gain nothing.

For Mr Thomson: In fact the rules that i am following is min.1500G and compulsery using "bathtub" in 8 min race, in fact this is favor for TB03D, TA05 and LHS, If you want to put these chassis to racing, you need spend much more money than a TRF416 to modified race, that's why created 3000KV with bathtub chassis class.
But not totally all drivers use Tamiyas, like myself, i am the only 1 using Cyclone TC with S bathtub chassis, then make me the disadvantage in weight, the bathtub chassis of tamiya are lighter than Cyclone S 1, so that's the problem. My car is overweight already without add any weight.
But i don't think this is matter, since the RX battery will increase the overweight.
The other trouble is that i don't know of that RX battery of MM dual fan controller will be linked or not in the supply of power for the receiver and servo, if is real, could be possible illegal.
But using RX battery or not, i am sure that i will use dual fan in my car, in fact sensored motor is much more hotter than sensorless motor with the problem of the gearing.
As the manual said, the 13.5 should be not over 6.0 FDR, but don't you know in our race series, sensorless motors could be using until 4.8FDR with heatsink and 1 fan, incredible isn't it?
That's why i am finding the solution of run with sensored motor could be as fast as sensorless, which i think is almost impossible.
And my motive of changing to sensored, was the problem of the handling of my car, i have a friend which try to use a TP 3000KV sensored motor in his TC4 and drove my car which use sensorless, he said my car is totally not hard to drive compared with his car.
About that motor cooler of MM, maybe i will try it, if i could. I saw somebody use it before in race, but was just 1 person.

For Burito: I don't want to make you boring, would you mind to confirm me once more time, if that "50625 X12 Modified Lightweight Aluminium Front Housing" could not fit in X12 stock spec, in fact it has shown in manual then makes me so confused.

Best regards
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:40 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Thomson View Post
Sure there must be a way .. But the X12 stock spec series and the SXX Stock spec speedo are designed to work together perfectly, so it's going to be hard to beat that. That's what I think is the main difference between LRP and let's say Tekin and Speed Passion.

Tekin and SP make very good speedo's and motors, don't get me wrong on that. But I think LRP is one step ahead on fine tuning the speedo and the motor together. Which means the combination SXX speedo + X12 motor is just lethal



You could try a higher profile, but the profiles specified in the manual are recommended for a reason. That's what they work best on. So when using the ESC timing suggested in the manual, with the standard timing of the motor will give you the best combination of speedo and motor. That will work better than changing the motor timing and the speedo timing.

And when you want to keep you motor a bit cooler here's a tip.

Use the Much More Motor Cooler before the race:


And during the race a single motorcooler would be enough. You don't really need the complete set with fan controller and everything. It will just make the car heavier, and with most races extra receiver/cooler batteries aren't even allowed anymore.

Like EAMotorsports said.. I've seen them around 100C / 210 F a lot of times without problems. That's the advantage of the stronger magnets. As you might know magnets tend to be less powerful when they get hot. But still than the power of the magnets is equal to the power of the magnets of another motor before the start of the heat
I would highly encourage people to NOT use those motor coolers. We had dozens of motors go bad at our track a couple summers ago and we finally determined it was these motor coolers that was causing the problem. Not sure if it was causing condensation in the motors or what but once everyone stopped using them the motor failures went away.
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