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Old 02-04-2004, 11:41 AM   #6061
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Hi Martin. Yes I was at the nordics. Congrats on the win!
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Old 02-04-2004, 12:36 PM   #6062
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Thank you sands, I did consider that last night when i was installing my electronics, when i should have been studying for my geometry midterm I took today! So in a way, I was studying, with angles of camber links, scale factors of the front shock tower to the rear, etc. Did you guys know the length of the base of the quadrilateral that we call the bulkhead is x+15 cm long?
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:42 PM   #6063
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Default Lazy steering

Question:

The car has lazy steering on initial turn in. What adjustments would effect this the most to counter it. Softer springs and oil have had no effect onthe initial turn in so I am now experimenting with going with a harder front spring. I usually run 35 weight associated oil with 3 pistons open and white or light blue springs.
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Old 02-04-2004, 03:03 PM   #6064
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Hochberg
Did you guys know the length of the base of the quadrilateral that we call the bulkhead is x+15 cm long?
Somebody needs to study more,

or get a girlfriend,

or have a beer, or ....

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Old 02-04-2004, 03:16 PM   #6065
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Spaceboy, the best way to sharpen initial turn in is to add caster. BUT you will lose some corner exit steering.

Phil...
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Old 02-04-2004, 03:58 PM   #6066
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Quote:
Originally posted by pilmat
Spaceboy, the best way to sharpen initial turn in is to add caster. BUT you will lose some corner exit steering.

Phil...
Phil, you have the right idea, but it sounds like you accidently reversed the affects. Reducing castor, rather than adding, should do what you described.
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Old 02-04-2004, 04:05 PM   #6067
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Quote:
Originally posted by sands
Somebody needs to study more,

or get a girlfriend,

or have a beer, or ....

LOL sands, i'm too young to drink! and my girlfriend lives about an hour away... but thanks again for the help. I think the car should do well sunday. Has anyone tried running 0* toe in the rear? I tried it with the spacer that gives you 2*.
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Old 02-04-2004, 04:33 PM   #6068
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KMW, how does reducing the caster benefit turn in?

I know the XRay set-up book says that too, but I see it different. When we put camber on the car, we do it by adding kpi (king pin inclination). Kpi is the angle of the center of rotaion of the steering knuckle. The effect of increasing caster on a positive kpi set-up is to raise the outside wheel and lower the inside wheel when turned. This effect causes a weight transfer to the outside front wheel which naturally turns the car into the corner.

To see this effect, put the car on a tweek station and turn the wheels. Watch the bubble take off!!

This is the way I have always adjusted cars in the past (XXX-S, TC-3, etc.), and it worked. But I am interested in hearing how reducing caster will benefit, as both you and XRay say. Hey, they designed a great car, they must know what they are doing!!!!!

Phil...
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Old 02-04-2004, 11:52 PM   #6069
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Quote:
Originally posted by pilmat
KMW, how does reducing the caster benefit turn in?

I know the XRay set-up book says that too, but I see it different. When we put camber on the car, we do it by adding kpi (king pin inclination). Kpi is the angle of the center of rotaion of the steering knuckle. The effect of increasing caster on a positive kpi set-up is to raise the outside wheel and lower the inside wheel when turned. This effect causes a weight transfer to the outside front wheel which naturally turns the car into the corner.

To see this effect, put the car on a tweek station and turn the wheels. Watch the bubble take off!!

This is the way I have always adjusted cars in the past (XXX-S, TC-3, etc.), and it worked. But I am interested in hearing how reducing caster will benefit, as both you and XRay say. Hey, they designed a great car, they must know what they are doing!!!!!

Phil...
First let's discuss semantics, so that we're on the same page. When I say reduce castor I mean to say less of a difference between the castor angle and true vertical, i.e. going from a 6* Xray block to a 3* Xray block.

With that said, my understanding is that less castor (more vertical) reduces the camber change during the corner, among other things. Because of this the mid and exit corner steering are reduced because of a smaller front tire contact patch. However, the reduced camber change also results in a larger front tire contact patch at the initial stages of turn-in, before the car has taken set. This helps to increase front traction and steering response at the early stages of the corner. The opposite is true of more castor (less vertical) because of increased camber change.

I've never read an explanation for increased initial turn-in like yours. I do know that castor raises the car, which is what causes the self-centering effect, but do you have a link pointing to more information about what you described?
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:03 AM   #6070
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part of the confusion might be that the car takes a set really fast and you miss the initial part where the 3-0 caster will turn in stronger. You see the hard bite on the 6*, but it comes on progressively.
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:04 AM   #6071
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Hochberg
Has anyone tried running 0* toe in the rear? I tried it with the spacer that gives you 2*.
I've never run to 0* but you will probably have to run a really soft rear end to produce bite compared to the front suspension.

Most people seam to run from 1* to 2* per side.
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Old 02-05-2004, 08:57 AM   #6072
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OK, I'll put the shim in there then.
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Old 02-05-2004, 10:47 AM   #6073
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Ride height?

On page 177 there is a setup that I am going to try. Ride height is 4mm. Is that on the foams, or on the Hudy?
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Old 02-05-2004, 11:02 AM   #6074
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Quote:
Originally posted by chachi
Ride height?

On page 177 there is a setup that I am going to try. Ride height is 4mm. Is that on the foams, or on the Hudy?
RH should always be checked with the wheels on.
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:08 PM   #6075
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We run on a parking lotc style surface, and generally require a lot of turn in, has anyone ever ran the zero degree blocks, and either zero or 3 on the arm?
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