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Old 03-19-2011, 03:54 PM   #1666
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Is 90degree's too much for a 10.5 set-up? Don't want to cook my motor on the first outing with the turbo lol.
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:56 PM   #1667
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Is 90degree's too much for a 10.5 set-up? Don't want to cook my motor on the first outing with the turbo lol.
more than likely gonna cook something. you need to post what car you have and the type and size of your track. this is the only way someone can offer you any set up help...
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:45 PM   #1668
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I hope I can get some clarification on timing. There are discussions out there about how Novak sets motor timing vs everyone else. What I have heard is that Novak's 15 on the motor is like everyone else's 0. I don't need a long explanation on that subject because I'm running a Ballistic, I'm only concerned as to how it applies to the Kinetic. I guess the basic question is how much timing, theoretically, can be applied to the motor? My understanding, right or wrong, is that we are working with a total advance window of 60 degrees split between the motor and the speed control. If you have 30 on the motor, you can only add 30 in the speedo. Does the speed control know how much timing is on the motor? I've never tried it, but I guess you can have the motor set to 45 and add 55 in the speedo for a total of 100 degrees of advance. Is that even possible? I've never run with anything exceeding 60 degrees total. I'm interested in any input, but I would really like to hear an explanation from someone at Novak.

After having a few overheating issues, I've started running telemetry to keep an eye on temps on the track. I have the alarm set to 150 and it comes on momentarily throughout the race so I know at times I'm tipping 150. I looked at the temp right at the end of the main and it was at 117. By the time I came off the stand, the alarm was on continually at 150 and the temp continued to rise to just under 170. Is the after run temp surge detrimental to the motor, or are the operational temps what need to stay below 160?
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:14 PM   #1669
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I hope I can get some clarification on timing. There are discussions out there about how Novak sets motor timing vs everyone else. What I have heard is that Novak's 15 on the motor is like everyone else's 0. I don't need a long explanation on that subject because I'm running a Ballistic, I'm only concerned as to how it applies to the Kinetic. I guess the basic question is how much timing, theoretically, can be applied to the motor? My understanding, right or wrong, is that we are working with a total advance window of 60 degrees split between the motor and the speed control. If you have 30 on the motor, you can only add 30 in the speedo. Does the speed control know how much timing is on the motor? I've never tried it, but I guess you can have the motor set to 45 and add 55 in the speedo for a total of 100 degrees of advance. Is that even possible? I've never run with anything exceeding 60 degrees total. I'm interested in any input, but I would really like to hear an explanation from someone at Novak.

After having a few overheating issues, I've started running telemetry to keep an eye on temps on the track. I have the alarm set to 150 and it comes on momentarily throughout the race so I know at times I'm tipping 150. I looked at the temp right at the end of the main and it was at 117. By the time I came off the stand, the alarm was on continually at 150 and the temp continued to rise to just under 170. Is the after run temp surge detrimental to the motor, or are the operational temps what need to stay below 160?
I have some Ballistics that have seen 200+ temps multiple times and they still run fast. Im not saying its a good thing and would recommend you do your best to keep temps down but it has happend without any noticable damage.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #1670
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I have some Ballistics that have seen 200+ temps multiple times and they still run fast. Im not saying its a good thing and would recommend you do your best to keep temps down but it has happend without any noticable damage.
By accident I had a Ballistic with the new epoxied stator at over 280* on the temp gun, it was so hot that the orange ring actually changed color. I took it apart expecting the usual melted solder and burnt wire only to find nothing, ziltch, nadda, it still looks like when I installed it, and it still works the same. The rotor seems a little weak now, but the stator is still rock solid. I would not recommend gearing for that high a temp, but it sure was a good torture test and a testament to the durability of the epoxied stators.
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Old 03-23-2011, 04:50 PM   #1671
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Originally Posted by GLOWHEAD View Post
I hope I can get some clarification on timing. There are discussions out there about how Novak sets motor timing vs everyone else. What I have heard is that Novak's 15 on the motor is like everyone else's 0. I don't need a long explanation on that subject because I'm running a Ballistic, I'm only concerned as to how it applies to the Kinetic. I guess the basic question is how much timing, theoretically, can be applied to the motor? My understanding, right or wrong, is that we are working with a total advance window of 60 degrees split between the motor and the speed control. If you have 30 on the motor, you can only add 30 in the speedo. Does the speed control know how much timing is on the motor? I've never tried it, but I guess you can have the motor set to 45 and add 55 in the speedo for a total of 100 degrees of advance. Is that even possible? I've never run with anything exceeding 60 degrees total. I'm interested in any input, but I would really like to hear an explanation from someone at Novak.

After having a few overheating issues, I've started running telemetry to keep an eye on temps on the track. I have the alarm set to 150 and it comes on momentarily throughout the race so I know at times I'm tipping 150. I looked at the temp right at the end of the main and it was at 117. By the time I came off the stand, the alarm was on continually at 150 and the temp continued to rise to just under 170. Is the after run temp surge detrimental to the motor, or are the operational temps what need to stay below 160?
I think Adan or Charlie are best to answer the first part about your timing question, mine would be wild speculation. I think 64* is the prime number though.

I think your right in the ball park for the temps though, I usually get a reading of about 141-148*.(One small fan pointing at the motor.) If you can check the sc and motor temp thru the Novalink, that will give you a real accurate internal temp which is what you should really be worried about.
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:32 PM   #1672
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Originally Posted by GLOWHEAD View Post
I hope I can get some clarification on timing. There are discussions out there about how Novak sets motor timing vs everyone else. What I have heard is that Novak's 15 on the motor is like everyone else's 0. I don't need a long explanation on that subject because I'm running a Ballistic, I'm only concerned as to how it applies to the Kinetic. I guess the basic question is how much timing, theoretically, can be applied to the motor? My understanding, right or wrong, is that we are working with a total advance window of 60 degrees split between the motor and the speed control. If you have 30 on the motor, you can only add 30 in the speedo. Does the speed control know how much timing is on the motor? I've never tried it, but I guess you can have the motor set to 45 and add 55 in the speedo for a total of 100 degrees of advance. Is that even possible? I've never run with anything exceeding 60 degrees total. I'm interested in any input, but I would really like to hear an explanation from someone at Novak.

After having a few overheating issues, I've started running telemetry to keep an eye on temps on the track. I have the alarm set to 150 and it comes on momentarily throughout the race so I know at times I'm tipping 150. I looked at the temp right at the end of the main and it was at 117. By the time I came off the stand, the alarm was on continually at 150 and the temp continued to rise to just under 170. Is the after run temp surge detrimental to the motor, or are the operational temps what need to stay below 160?
Novak neutral point equals to 30 degree absolute timing.
We use a custom built timing jig that rotates the motor at a fixed RPM and we use a digital scope to set the timing between the coils and the hall sensors.
This is the only way you can accurately set timing on a brush less motor

If you are using our Kinetic ESC its best to use less then 30 degree timing on the motor.
The esc dynamically applies timing based on the motor RPM.
ESC can compensate for motor timing to a certain degree, its best not to run motor timing higher then 35-40 degree.
We use 30 degree number based on many years of data and we think its good compromise for RPM vs torque for a non timing esc.
Many of our drivers are using 15-20 degree timing on the motor and using the esc to apply dynamic timing at higher RPM to get the best performance and the lowest motor temperatures.

Most of the heat generated in the motor comes from the copper loss, meaning the winding and they are located in side the stator, you are reading the motor temperature on the outside of the lamination so the heat continues to flow outside to the cooler air even after you have stopped running the motor.
170 degree F means the internal temperature is closer to 200-240.
Once you get the internal temperature that high you will degrade the magnet on the rotor.

I hope this answer some of your questions.
Adnan
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:45 AM   #1673
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Novak neutral point equals to 30 degree absolute timing.
We use a custom built timing jig that rotates the motor at a fixed RPM and we use a digital scope to set the timing between the coils and the hall sensors.
This is the only way you can accurately set timing on a brush less motor

If you are using our Kinetic ESC its best to use less then 30 degree timing on the motor.
The esc dynamically applies timing based on the motor RPM.
ESC can compensate for motor timing to a certain degree, its best not to run motor timing higher then 35-40 degree.
We use 30 degree number based on many years of data and we think its good compromise for RPM vs torque for a non timing esc.
Many of our drivers are using 15-20 degree timing on the motor and using the esc to apply dynamic timing at higher RPM to get the best performance and the lowest motor temperatures.

Most of the heat generated in the motor comes from the copper loss, meaning the winding and they are located in side the stator, you are reading the motor temperature on the outside of the lamination so the heat continues to flow outside to the cooler air even after you have stopped running the motor.
170 degree F means the internal temperature is closer to 200-240.
Once you get the internal temperature that high you will degrade the magnet on the rotor.

I hope this answer some of your questions.
Adnan
Thank you Adnan, I guess I need some further clarification. When you say not to run more than 35-40 motor timing, are you referring to the static timing on the motor case, or is that the total amount of timing between what is set on the motor case and what is applied dynamically? I am running 12th scale 13.5 Ballistic with the Kinetic 1s. I currently have the timing on the motor case set to 25 and I have 35 in the dynamic timing for a total of 60 degrees. Are you saying that that is too much total timing advance? If the minimum timing value that can be set on the motor case is 15, then the maximum dynamic timing value for that static value is what? I'm a bit confused as to why, or under what circumstance, you would utilize the maximum dynamic value of 55. Let me ask the original question again just to make sure we are communicating. When I take the timing value set on the motor case, what ever that may be, and add that to the value set in the dynamic advance, that sum should not exceed what value?

Relative to the motor temps, I guess that the motor, at any time, should not exceed 160. I am experiencing a nearly 50 degree rise in temp after coming off the track, or so it would seem. In that case, I would have to infer that an on the track operational temp should not exceed 100. My experience is that most guys check their temps track side, and may not be aware that the motor temp continues to rise after the run. Thanks again for your input. I am running the low res Novalink with a new bb and the 1.4.2 firmware, and the temp data is not functional. I'm just reporting that for what it's worth.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:21 PM   #1674
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I also run 1/12th with a 13.5 and WGT with 13.5. I don't know of any difference but I use the 2s version Kinetics and hook up the rec packs just like I would with the booster. Anyway I run both car's Ballistics at the 15* mark and set the dynamic advance to 50* at a 2000-6000 window and the boost on at a 450 delay. After an 8 min race the 1/12th motor comes off at 130*-142* and the esc is 91*-107* with a roll out of 3.14. The Wgt comes off motor 136*-148* and the esc 90*-100*. I always use two temp guns to check for accuracy and tI have noticed lately the the novalink numbers don't come close to matching. I have also had trouble just using 55* and no boost because my esc's come off hotter than my motors. I know my numbers seem pretty far off from what I have seen posted on here but it has been what it takes to beat the Tekin's,LRP's and Diamond's at our track. I still can't get the last bit of speed that the Tekin is getting the last '15 of the '90 strait but I can out pace them most of the time in the infield. I have also noticed that my set up doesn't fall off like the others at the 6 min mark and my avg lap times only differ by 2-3 tenths from start to finish.

Plaese guys post your track size and set ups on here so we might get a better handle on these things, it might help and it might not.

R/Car-Indianapolis, Indiana '100x'48

1/12-13.5 Ballistic

Min brake 9%
Drag brake .1%
Dead band 5%
Min Drive 15%
Current limit 1
Brake Freq. 2.25kHz
Brake end point 100%
Drive Freq. 16kHz
Volt. cut-off OFF
Timing adv set point 2000 RPM
End Timing adv. set piont 6000 RPM
ADVANCE 50*
Boost ON
Boost Delay 450ms

Jeremiah Ward
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:46 PM   #1675
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Originally Posted by GLOWHEAD View Post
Thank you Adnan, I guess I need some further clarification. When you say not to run more than 35-40 motor timing, are you referring to the static timing on the motor case, or is that the total amount of timing between what is set on the motor case and what is applied dynamically? I am running 12th scale 13.5 Ballistic with the Kinetic 1s. I currently have the timing on the motor case set to 25 and I have 35 in the dynamic timing for a total of 60 degrees. Are you saying that that is too much total timing advance? If the minimum timing value that can be set on the motor case is 15, then the maximum dynamic timing value for that static value is what? I'm a bit confused as to why, or under what circumstance, you would utilize the maximum dynamic value of 55. Let me ask the original question again just to make sure we are communicating. When I take the timing value set on the motor case, what ever that may be, and add that to the value set in the dynamic advance, that sum should not exceed what value?

Relative to the motor temps, I guess that the motor, at any time, should not exceed 160. I am experiencing a nearly 50 degree rise in temp after coming off the track, or so it would seem. In that case, I would have to infer that an on the track operational temp should not exceed 100. My experience is that most guys check their temps track side, and may not be aware that the motor temp continues to rise after the run. Thanks again for your input. I am running the low res Novalink with a new bb and the 1.4.2 firmware, and the temp data is not functional. I'm just reporting that for what it's worth.
30-45 degree is the timing on the motor.

Do not add the motor timing and the electrical timing, our software takes care of all that stuff.
When you select 55 degree of timing on the esc firmware in the esc accounts for the motor timing and applies the required electrical timing.
Static Timing on the motor and the electrical timing applied by the esc are the same.

25 degree on the motor and 35 in the esc is pretty normal, we a a few oval driver that use about 20 degree on the motor and 38-40 degree in the esc and they are doing very well with that setup.
The most important thing to remember is the motor temperature at the end of the run, it should be around 140-150 and once you stop it will go up as you no longer have any cooling air.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:49 PM   #1676
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I also run 1/12th with a 13.5 and WGT with 13.5. I don't know of any difference but I use the 2s version Kinetics and hook up the rec packs just like I would with the booster. Anyway I run both car's Ballistics at the 15* mark and set the dynamic advance to 50* at a 2000-6000 window and the boost on at a 450 delay. After an 8 min race the 1/12th motor comes off at 130*-142* and the esc is 91*-107* with a roll out of 3.14. The Wgt comes off motor 136*-148* and the esc 90*-100*. I always use two temp guns to check for accuracy and tI have noticed lately the the novalink numbers don't come close to matching. I have also had trouble just using 55* and no boost because my esc's come off hotter than my motors. I know my numbers seem pretty far off from what I have seen posted on here but it has been what it takes to beat the Tekin's,LRP's and Diamond's at our track. I still can't get the last bit of speed that the Tekin is getting the last '15 of the '90 strait but I can out pace them most of the time in the infield. I have also noticed that my set up doesn't fall off like the others at the 6 min mark and my avg lap times only differ by 2-3 tenths from start to finish.

Plaese guys post your track size and set ups on here so we might get a better handle on these things, it might help and it might not.

R/Car-Indianapolis, Indiana '100x'48

1/12-13.5 Ballistic

Min brake 9%
Drag brake .1%
Dead band 5%
Min Drive 15%
Current limit 1
Brake Freq. 2.25kHz
Brake end point 100%
Drive Freq. 16kHz
Volt. cut-off OFF
Timing adv set point 2000 RPM
End Timing adv. set piont 6000 RPM
ADVANCE 50*
Boost ON
Boost Delay 450ms

Jeremiah Ward
My recommendation is to try high end RPM, try going up 1000 -2000 RPM so you get the full advantage of Dynamic timing.
Adnan
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:27 AM   #1677
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Isn't it going to go to full timing anyway after 450msboost delay which is about 10-15 feet onto the strait? I ask that because wouldn't it over ride the dynamic adv because at full trigger pull which is alnost everywhere in 1/12 as soon as you set the corner doesn't it go to full timing after the delay times out?

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Old 03-25-2011, 08:34 AM   #1678
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If I may make a suggestion for the next software update, keep the boost on a delay but only let it kick in or on after you get past your highest RPM set point with the boost delay then full boost. That would mean that full timing only comes on after it goes through your adv ramp then a delay then full 60*-65* timing. I think that would make this easier for me anyway on wether I should use boost or just the advance and play with the advance curves.

Or come up with a set of ramp graphs like you have on the throttle and brake adjustments so we can adjust the advance curves and have a picture to go by.

Just talking is all but I would really like it.

Jeremiah Ward
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:52 AM   #1679
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If I may make a suggestion for the next software update, keep the boost on a delay but only let it kick in or on after you get past your highest RPM set point with the boost delay then full boost. That would mean that full timing only comes on after it goes through your adv ramp then a delay then full 60*-65* timing. I think that would make this easier for me anyway on wether I should use boost or just the advance and play with the advance curves.

Or come up with a set of ramp graphs like you have on the throttle and brake adjustments so we can adjust the advance curves and have a picture to go by.

Just talking is all but I would really like it.

Jeremiah Ward
Very good point!

Boost only comes on when the following is true:
Motor RPM is above the Higher set point
Throttle is Full for the set delay point.

Both of the above have to be true for the Boost to come on.

If you have the upper RPM set too low then you will go into boost way too early and just cause heating in the motor.
This is the reason I recommend setting the upper RPM point as high as the your application will allows.

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Old 03-25-2011, 01:09 PM   #1680
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RPM values are stuck again I don't know if the link is the issue or what, but everything worked on tuesday. Then last night at the track was making some fine tuning adjustments and the rpm range would not take the new values. I tried all the tricks hitting return after each value, tabbing to the next box... still nothing. All the other values would change but not the RPM range. Which means it will only be a short time till the timing range refused to work too.

To say I am disappointed really is an understatement. Novak support has been great, but the quality of this ESC is just lacking. I have just about every brand of ESC out and none have had this many issues. I have tried to be patient and understanding as they work the bugs out.... but this is pushing 9 months and the word on the track is to stay away from the Orange nightmare! I like the fact that these are designed and built in the US. And that really weighs on my decisions. So I just recommend the Havok pro SC if someone id asking about Novak. I have seen the least amount of issues with these and you get about 90% of the functionality.
The fact is the kinetic has not been reliable. If I take it to a big race I want to know I can be reasonably certain that all its functions will work everytime I hook it up to the PC. Right now I can't.
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