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Old 02-17-2004, 04:07 PM   #1
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Exclamation VERY IMPORTANT: We need new rules!!!

I had this a long time coming but have started this now becouse of the "Bring back the Pro 10" tread.

I've stated the following in that tread:

When touring cars came they where cheap very fun to drive becouse you could slide, brake, jump over curbs, run on untreated surface where realistic, ect. Even touring cars have problems. They became to expensive becouse of the different tires, motor limits, unrealistic body's ect.
Pro ten mod eats tires like crazy and now with the newer battery's and motors even more but it fast and thus cool.

What all organisations need to do is keep everything in SCALE. Touring cars with 4 door 2 liter saloon looking like body's should be 180mm wide. Or if they want to use 190mm the rules should say to use DTM or GT1 looking like body's (NSX, Supra, Corvette, ect.). Pro 10 cars should use 200mm wide body's like the Tamiya LM series and limit tires becouse the will eat them to. 235mm wide it more like 1/8 scale so you should name it 1/8 scale.

You may say: Yeah but 235mm is faster. Of course it is but we are model car racers so people who say that could use only a wing as a body or no cockpit and so on.

If the organisations would be more strict about that we would all race more realistic car's that therefore arn't that much slower (I bet a Tamiya NSX is as fast as a Protoform touring body) and a lot more apealing for outsider's AND girls. Look at Kyosho mini-Z cars. They have great succes becouse they are fast AND realistic looking.
The goal is to have more fun and attract more people to the hobby.
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:14 PM   #2
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Personally i could care less about attracting people into this hobby. Only they can decide if they like it, i'm going to keep on running the classes I enjoy. Realism can take a back seat, i get that enough in what I call REAL LIFE.
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:23 PM   #3
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AWOLsoldier. That is a very silly answer you made. It would be great for everyone to race realistic cars!
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:32 PM   #4
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attracting more people = more demand = lower prices.

i dont see why anyone wouldnt want that
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:33 PM   #5
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No one is stopping you from running whichever body you want, except in ROAR sanctioned races.
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:45 PM   #6
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When now a manufacturer makes a body, they only want to make it as sleek and easy as possible to make (does't mather how ugly it is) becouse they want an advantage over the competition and more money (simple molds). Then they send it to IFMAR, EFRA, ROAR, ect. with some money and they all get approved. This is wrong. Sanctioning body's and manufactures would make a lot more money if they make real Scale cars than appeal the great public. Look at 1/5, these look great and nobody complains about performance (except a gearbox) unless Protoform or so start making some sleek body's and get aproved they will kill it to.
Here is how it should be:

1/12 is OK in dimension except for the height.
1/10 oval nascar is OK for dimension but should not allow to cut out the rear (we schould allow the clear rear wing becouse of scale speed).
Touring (electric and gas) should be GT1 or DTM becouse real FIA 2 liter touring is allmost dead and costs to much to bring chassis's back to 180mm.
Pro 10 should be 200mm wide.
1/8 should be 2cm less wide.

The old Pro ten should become a little longer and higher and be Pro 8 if you want it to exist.

Gas cars (especially touring) should not allow to cut out a front or rear window. Look at the Kyosho fan systems, these work really good and can be improved even more. F1 could come back to (if we don't go nuts on rear tire width).
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:46 PM   #7
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I'm starting to get worried by the current trend in touring bodyshells.

Details like... wings with additional vertical plates (Mazda 6, Alfa 2.0), deep, square, rear bumper sides (as before), offset wheel arches to push the shell forward (Mazda 6, Losi Alfa) all make the cars less and less "real".

We've always had "jelly-mould" shells, half the time it's because the moulds lack artistry, but we're beginning to get pure "handling" shells, that don't capture the essence of a touring car.

Look at 1/8th and to a lesser extent 1/12th - how out of touch with modern full-size racing are they? TOJ racing died in the 70's, Group C in the 80's.

I ought to congratulate the BRCA (British sanctioning body) for banning certain unrealistic shells at the top level (such as the Losi Alfa and Stratus 2), but I think they're fighting a losing battle unless ROAR and others take a stand.

And yes, racing unrealistic shells will make the hobby unappealing to newcomers. Although how many 4-door touring car series actually survive around the world's full-size racetracks?

Although I don't agree with the point about dimensions being wrong, a 200mm tourer still looks in proportion. 235mm is wrong, but who races that class anymore? GT Shells? Jusst doesn't feel "right" to me, I like racing saloons.
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by sosidge
I'm starting to get worried by the current trend in touring bodyshells.

Details like... wings with additional vertical plates (Mazda 6, Alfa 2.0), deep, square, rear bumper sides (as before), offset wheel arches to push the shell forward (Mazda 6, Losi Alfa) all make the <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A>s less and less "real".

We've always had "jelly-mould" shells, half the time it's because the moulds lack artistry, but we're beginning to get pure "handling" shells, that don't capture the essence of a touring car.

Look at 1/8th and to a lesser extent 1/12th - how out of touch with modern full-size racing are they? TOJ racing died in the 70's, Group C in the 80's.

I ought to congratulate the BRCA (British sanctioning body) for banning certain unrealistic shells at the top level (such as the Losi Alfa and Stratus 2), but I think they're fighting a losing battle unless ROAR and others take a stand.

And yes, racing unrealistic shells will make the hobby unappealing to newcomers. Although how many 4-door touring car series actually survive around the world's full-size racetracks?


And nobody wants to run things like those "wingcar" slotcarts.
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry White
And nobody wants to run things like those "wingcar" slotcarts.
I had a go with one of them once - crazy! Insanely fast - but it didn't look like a car.

Perhaps I'll buy some flat lexan and glue it to the side of an old shell, see what happens!
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:58 PM   #10
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But think about it. Our bodyshells are someone's art, and fits our needs perfectly. IMO, I think they look great how they are. If we did run realistic bodies, which especially is an issue in 12th scale, there wouldn't be enough downforce and the body wouldn't handle right. Yes, the idea of scale auto racing is to just scale down the action, but if things were EXACTLY to scale, problems with the real auto team (as far as bodywork) would be the same, just a smaller scale. The bodies look pretty close to real, I think.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry White
AWOLsoldier. That is a very silly answer you made. It would be great for everyone to race realistic cars!
It's not silly, it's realistic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The reason things are they way they are is that functionality takes over for realism in competition. They have realistic models, tamiya and kyosho make tons for those interested.

Your concept isn't new, it's been around for as long as I can remember and the fight to attract new people has been ongoing. The newbies can have their realistic beginner kits, i want the hardcore expensive kits designed for one thing, competition.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:20 PM   #12
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You can buy decient looking bodies. The tamiya bodies, well they are just awsome, some of the protoform bodies are ok(vectra) which actually handles very nicely to top it off. I don't really care too much about scale realism. As long as the body looks alright and handles nicely I'll buy it ad run it. I don't have a problem with the mazda 6(which will be my next body) or the stratus 2. People who want pretty stuff can get it, just buy tamiya. From a racers stand point, as long as it handles nicely and isn't too ugle I'm all for it. I seriously doubt the scale realism of the hobby is hurting the hobby too much.

It comes down to what are you looking for?

- All show less go? (A slow lesser handling car due to body design)
- All go less show? (A great handling car that looks ok but is less scale)

A great paint job can make even the ugliest body look awsome.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Hochberg
But think about it. Our bodyshells are someone's art, and fits our needs perfectly. IMO, I think they look great how they are. If we did run realistic bodies, which especially is an issue in 12th scale, there wouldn't be enough downforce and the body wouldn't handle right. Yes, the idea of scale auto racing is to just scale down the action, but if things were EXACTLY to scale, problems with the real auto team (as far as bodywork) would be the same, just a smaller scale. The bodies look pretty close to real, I think.
It's true we would lose some performance but so what if everybody runs more realistic body's. I don't say the have to be exact real copy's. Look at old Tamiya 1/12 body's, they still had the body and wing in one piece. I also know we need our special needs and real wing shaped wings don't work in our scale but now we are spoilt with high performance body's that look like sombody sat on them. Especially 1/12, if someone would give you an existing body without bodyline molds or stickers it is impossible to know what that body is and an open body looks like it has a 1/24 scale helmet. BTW not perfect at all but the Hot Body's Ferrari 333 could look very realistic with some minor changes and it perfoms very good.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by AWOLsoldier
It's not silly, it's realistic. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The reason things are they way they are is that functionality takes over for realism in competition. They have realistic models, tamiya and kyosho make tons for those interested.

Your concept isn't new, it's been around for as long as I can remember and the fight to attract new people has been ongoing. The newbies can have their realistic beginner kits, i want the hardcore expensive kits designed for one thing, competition.
No offence but read what I said.
A Tamiya NSX or Ferrari can with maybe only a steeper wing be as fast or faster than any Stratus out there.
What makes a TCS race slower are mechanics and tires, not the body's.
The bigget reason why we use non Tamiya body's is becouse they arn't allowed and they allowed body's only are allowed becouse they paid for it.
Even David Jun won in 1996 won I think Roar Noationals (correct me if I'm wrong) with a Tamiya Mercedes body with a small plastic wing.
Don't worry, you would have as much fun or even more as you have now!
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:42 PM   #15
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If you really want scale realism that bad, maybe you should try model building.
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