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Old 10-27-2009, 08:06 PM   #151
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Haha, true story Speedybill.

How about we see how this plays out this year and if it doesn't work out, then nobody can say it wasn't tried. TC needs to have something new to make it better because it is falling off the map quickly! I don't think its anything that has to do with ROAR, I think People should look at what it cost to race them and the fact that a new TC comes out every other month. Two things totally out of ROAR's control.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:10 PM   #152
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WOW. ok so i just finished reading all 11 pages of this post tonight, and I thought I would chime in with a point of view of someone that would be attending his first roar nat.

First off I would like to say that everyone made some great points, and that I could understand both sides of the argument.

Second I truly do believe having a sportsman class at a national event is great for TC. I know a lot of drivers that would, and will consider going. Knowing that they are not going to get creamed by some team drivers. Also a point was made a few posts back about not having fun when youíre on the stand and getting bitched at for not driving the greatest. Good point to the guy that stated that. Most of us want to drive as clean as possible, and nothing will upset me more then pissing off another driver because of my lack of skill. That drains the fun out of an event instantly. I think if you take those things out of the equation you will get more drivers for an event like this of a lower to moderate level. (thatís a good thing )

However, I do agree that if you want to go to an event and run more then one class you should be able to. I would want to. No one should be forced to run a class they are not comfortable in or don't enjoy. But we all know an event can't have every class to please everyone. Though I think the following would help to make the most of the people happy. Not the foam guys sorry foam guys though I think that is another argument all together

Sportsman Stock
Sportsman Super Stock
Expert Stock
Expert Super Stock

I know then there is the issue of well who is a sportsman and who is an expert. And to that I have no answer. Should a guy that gets a discount at his LHS be considered sponsored? By all means no. Do I think a national ranking system would be good? Yes? But lets me honest. As it was stated earlier. "They're toy cars lets race and have fun." You guys know what classes you belong in. Most of us don't want to run with competition that we don't fit in with. The fast guys don't want to run with the slow guys it will piss them off every time they come around to lap me. And I don't want to run with the fast guys because of the fear I'm going to break him when he passes me. There goes the fun.

Well my 2 cents from reading this entire topic in one sitting.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:21 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
I ran 13.5 rubber tire in vegas and I can tell you that there were some of the Amateur guys that didnt belong in 13.5. I can also tell you that there were probably some guys in 17.5 amateur that didnt belong in it either!!
I suppose finishing second might make me part of that group. I don't know about the other guys, but I struggled for a long time over whether or not I should enter, especially since I'd done well the year before. Most people I talked to made it sound easy to justify since I was allowed to run based on the rules. In the end, that's what I did, but I too wonder how many of us in the A really belonged in that class?

50% sponsorship deals are easy enough to get, and easy enough to pass up that it's not really a reasonable way to determine someone's level of ability. If we must pursue this idea of a true amateur class, it's gotta be more intuitive than the current proposal.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:21 AM   #154
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a breakout lap time? i know a couple places across the country that have mentioned doing it or have done it. 1 lap under that cutoff on ur run and ur bounced/DQ'd. akin to bracket racing on the strip. perhaps better since its not just a 10sec blast down a straight but 6min of lap after lap tryin to get the most outta ur car. guys who shouldnt be there become quite obvious, even more so then now maybe.

bouncing ideas...

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Old 10-28-2009, 04:42 AM   #155
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a break-out time might be a good determiner - but, where do you put the driver then? since there isn't an 'expert' 17.5 class?

it seems to me, that aside from all the blasting of ROAR, the bigger concern is that there isn't an 'expert' 17.5 class - where those that don't want to take the step to mod or 13.5 can go race...

I do like the idea of one and only 1 class for TC - then offer something for the highest young driver, privateer, etc...but then again, if you made one class, the same people that are bitcing now would be bitching then...
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:47 AM   #156
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50% sponsorship deals are easy enough to get, and easy enough to pass up that it's not really a reasonable way to determine someone's level of ability. If we must pursue this idea of a true amateur class, it's gotta be more intuitive than the current proposal.
can't agree more...I have a sponsorship with a manufacturer, but they do not pay me to go race, nor give me free things to race, so a non-national level sponsorship is not the same thing as a FACTORY driver...

Tamiya does this all the time with the TCS series:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiyausa.com
Note: Full factory sponsored and professional drivers should read below, as they are not eligible to participate in the TCS series.

"Factory Team" drivers (drivers who are, or have ever been, employed or supported by a factory, manufacture or distributor as part of a factory racing team) are not allowed to compete for prizes or awards. This includes drivers that received sponsorship entailing a monthly salary from a factory and received paid airfare/accommodations to racing events. The host site will determine if sponsored or semi sponsored drivers will take away the spirit of the event being for the average hobbyist. If the host site deems it necessary, they may also bar these types of drivers from participating. It is further at the discretion of the host site to determine which racers fall under these criteria. Tamiya America cannot possibly know every individuals claims of being a sponsored or factory driver and therefore needs the judgment and discretion of the host site to weed out the factory sponsored driver that does not meet the average hobbyist criteria. Host sites must be careful not to confuse racers who get a deal from their friends that are employed or work for "motors R us" or a fly by night battery matcher as being sponsored. There will always be racers who will try and get a deal of some kind. Tamiya America strives for balanced conditions wherever possible.

The hardcore factory sponsored driver may not participate. An example of a racer that Tamiya America would not allow to compete would be the Jimmy Jacobson's, Josh Numan's and David Jun's of the RC industry. These types of drivers are clearly supported by a factory and would not be eligible to compete as Tamiya America supports their racing careers in all of the above mentioned points.
as flawed and as open to a local's interpertation as it is, its very clear who they are allowing to run in their series and who isn't...
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:48 AM   #157
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This move by Roar does more good then harm. In the past people b!tch about sandbaggers in stock and Roar addressed the problem " damm if you do damm if you don't" so if your 20 50 100% sponsored NO 17.5 if you work for a RC company or sponsored by a hobby store NO 17.5.. And for those who say "I'm not going to Roar because of this rule" have a nice life stay at your local, who knows maybe MORE PEOPLE MAY SHOW UP BECAUSE YOU DON'T
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:50 AM   #158
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I suppose finishing second might make me part of that group. I don't know about the other guys, but I struggled for a long time over whether or not I should enter, especially since I'd done well the year before. Most people I talked to made it sound easy to justify since I was allowed to run based on the rules. In the end, that's what I did, but I too wonder how many of us in the A really belonged in that class?

50% sponsorship deals are easy enough to get, and easy enough to pass up that it's not really a reasonable way to determine someone's level of ability. If we must pursue this idea of a true amateur class, it's gotta be more intuitive than the current proposal.
Hey Adam,

No you were NOT the ones I were talking about. Although from last year to this year I can tell that you as a racer have improved dramatically. You've put in a lot of time and work and it showed this year...Congrats on that. The guys I am talking about are ones who's sponsor list dissappeared on here around the time signups became open and they magically reappeared the day the got home from the race.

While I agree the system that has been put in place is not perfect.....IT is a start and can be tweaked possibly next year if the need is there. Everyone needs to just be glad that ROAR is trying to look out for the Un-Sponsored drivers now. The complaint has always been that all ROAR cars about is the PRO or Sponsored drivers anymore and not the average racer. Well they have been listening and have put the current system into play. While some may choose to not support ROAR because they cant race in a class they dont belong (not pointed toward anyone that has posted here or anyone in paticular) I think it will make for better RACING within the classes now that guys will be forced to race where they should have been for a while.

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Old 10-28-2009, 06:08 AM   #159
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This is posted on Dawns Facebook page.

Dawn Maxwell Sanchez
on road electric forum.. the thread about the nats at Mimi's.... It would appear Fairtrace and Miller are very offended that they are getting forced to race where they should be racing and not allowed to sandbag anymore....

oh yea, I said that publically.... its my page.. I get to do that...







And this is why I do not respect you and from what I can tell most other onroad racers feel the same way. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are so out of touch with the Onroad racing scene and mostly every choice that Roar has made since your coup into the presidency has been idiotic and this just falls into the long list.

I have raced stock about 1 time in the last 2-3 years. I never plan to race stock again in my life. Just like most things you are missing the point of mine and most other peoples posts.

You made my decision easy on going to the nats now. Even though the race is less than 3 hours from me I think I'll be racing at our local track where the people running the track respect all the racers that attend the races.

I'm also done chiming in on this thread because while you are in office as president Roar is dead to me and I do not care what they do to destroy their attendance or the HOBBY in general. I'll give my support to someone that respects the racers like Scotty and Boylan.

I can say that because this is a public forum...
Geez Larry what a crybaby!

If you don't like what ROAR is doing, why not make contact with someone from ROAR and find out what can be done to change it?

I don't know about your region (region 2 I believe) but anyone who has contacted me gets their questions answered and I go out of my way to help them. Ask Gavin about what I did to get his batteries accepted for the last regional. And when Donny Lia came to me and said single cell lipo was the future of 1/12 scale I made sure the ExComm knew about this and gave them as much information as possible. I even tried to get it accepted for the regional (the batteries weren't available in time).

You cannot compare what ROAR does to a couple of independent race promoters. ROAR does much much more than they do.

The electric on road racing community has been living in it's own world for quite a while now. You guys have been making your own decisions and racing among yourselves without any regard for trying to expand the number of racers. I said this years ago, how does it make sense for someone to spend nearly a thousand dollars on a good touring car setup, only to run stock? And when stock is that far advanced, how do you expect to get new people involved with racing? What do you think killed Horsham the first time? What do you think killed 360? The lack of new pepole entering the hobby. Right now the level of touring car is equivalent of someone learning RC helicopters with a full out 3D machine. It becomes so fustrating and expensive that the new person gives up.

ROAR is answering a call from people that has been asked for years, a way to separate the hobbyist from the full on racer. ROAR defining sportsman stock is what many people have asked for. And the only thing ROAR says is if you race sportsman you don't race another class (if you can race that class you shoudn't be in sportsman) and you not have any sort of help that could be considered sponsorship. How is this a bad thing?

If you want to run 2 classes, run super stock and modified. If you really want to see how you do against the best, mod is the place to do that.
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:53 AM   #160
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Geez Larry what a crybaby!

If you don't like what ROAR is doing, why not make contact with someone from ROAR and find out what can be done to change it?

I don't know about your region (region 2 I believe) but anyone who has contacted me gets their questions answered and I go out of my way to help them. Ask Gavin about what I did to get his batteries accepted for the last regional. And when Donny Lia came to me and said single cell lipo was the future of 1/12 scale I made sure the ExComm knew about this and gave them as much information as possible. I even tried to get it accepted for the regional (the batteries weren't available in time).

You cannot compare what ROAR does to a couple of independent race promoters. ROAR does much much more than they do.

The electric on road racing community has been living in it's own world for quite a while now. You guys have been making your own decisions and racing among yourselves without any regard for trying to expand the number of racers. I said this years ago, how does it make sense for someone to spend nearly a thousand dollars on a good touring car setup, only to run stock? And when stock is that far advanced, how do you expect to get new people involved with racing? What do you think killed Horsham the first time? What do you think killed 360? The lack of new pepole entering the hobby. Right now the level of touring car is equivalent of someone learning RC helicopters with a full out 3D machine. It becomes so fustrating and expensive that the new person gives up.

ROAR is answering a call from people that has been asked for years, a way to separate the hobbyist from the full on racer. ROAR defining sportsman stock is what many people have asked for. And the only thing ROAR says is if you race sportsman you don't race another class (if you can race that class you shoudn't be in sportsman) and you not have any sort of help that could be considered sponsorship. How is this a bad thing?

If you want to run 2 classes, run super stock and modified. If you really want to see how you do against the best, mod is the place to do that.

Whats funny Jim is Larry's not saying any of this for himself. He's trying to look out for people like me who while were not beginners have no right being in 13.5. People seem to think 13.5 in a TC is Slow. Its not its way faster then 19T. At last years snowbirds it was only 3 teenths off of modified. And Jim don't ever use Horsham in one of your rants again. You have absolutely no clue why it closed the first time.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:03 AM   #161
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after keeping up with this thread, i have noticed that the biggest part of the complaint here is the fact that the non sponsored guys want a second class to run. and just saying get a 1/12 car does not work. there are alot of discipline specific items that guys do not have, so dropping $300 to $400 bucks on a race that is going to cost a ton to goto already is not a fair solution. the second part is that some slightly sponsored guys do not feel they should be forced to run 13.5. i have to say that i feel for the non sponsored guy in this situation. for the sponsored guy.........well hard for me to say as we run 13.5 rubber weekly at our track so i am comfortable with it.

seems to me that with attendance down across the board, ANY race organizer would want to have the best chance of getting the highest number of entries. i would be willing to bet that 40% of all the entries in stock would also like to run superstock. most likely those same 40% are not going to make a main higher than c. so why not let them run with the big dogs.

i really feel that the whole point of the objections was misconstrued. my first big race was roar carpet nats 08. and i am addicted to the big race feel. guys like me are going to go to big races no matter what, but with people dropping out of the hobby all over the place, it seems to me like the best way of getting new people to big races is not to limit them to one class.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:32 AM   #162
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Wow, after reading all this ( yes, every post ) I am sooooo glad my wife put her foot down and told me I am taking her to France next April and pick 1 of 2 races to go to. Lets think about it....
Jan in Orlando or March in Rockville, MD....

Guess which one I chose?

I hope in the end everyone will just show up and race.....
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:16 AM   #163
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Way to support the racing in your area Rick! This is why racing is falling off in our area... I understand being frustrated about the new ROAR rules..but you are not hurting them by not racing...you are hurting the track that is hosting the race.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:39 AM   #164
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Yes!! This is official!!

Please see www.roarracing.com for all nationals in 2010 information....

and, Mimi.. congrats on this selection! I'm so pleased this event is coming to your track... FINALLY!!

Dawn
does the track meet all roar requirements?
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:41 AM   #165
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