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Old 10-17-2009, 06:18 AM   #1
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Default New spec rules in my area...23T brushed or 10.5 brushless?

Hey guys,

Could really use your help here. For next season, my local track is changing up the rules in the premier TC class.

It used to be 23T brushed motors only (with bushings, not bearings), but next season we have the option of using a brushless 10.5 motor.

Here's the catch though...they want to keep costs down, so the only 10.5 brushless motor they'll allow is the Yokomo Zero 10.5 because it's relatively cheap where I live in Japan (though it's out of stock at the moment, hence the quest for info).

The Yokomo Japan site isn't really helpfull either, so I figured I'd ask here. Anyone know anything about this motor? Is it Sensored or Sensorless?

If I went this route, i'd have to get a new speed controller since my LRP QC3 is brushed only. I don't have much space in my chassis, so does anyone know of a decent brushless controller that's tiny like the QC3?

How about the pro's/cons of a 10.5 brushless vs the brushed 23T? Which is faster, slower, more torque/rpm, better response, etc? I've never ran a brushless motor in a touring car before, since they don't allow them where I live (Okinawa Japan).

Any guidance you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

- Paulie
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:15 AM   #2
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Cant tell you anything about the motor, but look into the tekin RS esc, its really small, can run both sensored and sensorless, computer programmable and every time some new esc advancement comes into play you wont have to buy a new esc like some of the other brands, you can just download new firmware for free from tekin.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:31 AM   #3
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+1 for the Tekin RS. Don't bother getting the RS Pro, you only need that if you're running 5.5 mod or faster. The plain RS is shorter, lighter, and a lot cheaper than the RS Pro.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:58 PM   #4
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Well 10.5 used to be thought of as the 19T brushed equivalent, when on most tracks it's quite a bit faster then a 19T. So it is most likely that 10.5 will be quite a bit faster than a 23T brushed motor. How is it your club came up with that as an equivalence? 17.5 or even 13.5 would be much closer to a 23T brushed motor.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:15 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Well 10.5 used to be thought of as the 19T brushed equivalent, when on most tracks it's quite a bit faster then a 19T. So it is most likely that 10.5 will be quite a bit faster than a 23T brushed motor. How is it your club came up with that as an equivalence? 17.5 or even 13.5 would be much closer to a 23T brushed motor.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Here we use 17.5 as a 27 turn equal. 10.5 vs 23 turn doesn't add up.
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:23 PM   #6
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Not really sure where he came with that ratio...

I don't think anyone will really be able to use all that extra speed though as the 23T's are plenty fast already for our track.

If I make the switch to Brusless, it's going in a Tamiya EVO 5 MS (shaft drive). Not sure how that chassis will handle the torque of a 10.5

I grew up on shaft drive with the TC3 back in the day, and everytime I measure my performance doing a shaft vs belt shootout, I'm always faster with shaft drive.

I'm just afraid a 10.5 might be too much for a shaft driven chassis...

I guess time will tell...

Thanks for the heads up on the Tekin RS ESC. I'll definitly check that out.



- Paulie
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:46 PM   #7
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Malaysia runs 11.5t brushless VS 23t brushed and believe me when i say 23t brushed is no match for 11.5t brushless....
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:23 PM   #8
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Malaysia runs 11.5t brushless VS 23t brushed and believe me when i say 23t brushed is no match for 11.5t brushless....
And it shouldn't be when 13.5 BL is about the same speed as 19T brushed.

pgeldz...I'd suggest you talk to your race director and point out this is no where near equivalent before too many people invest in a BL system. My guess is that once they see how much faster the 10.5 systems are they are going to have to change the rules.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:56 PM   #9
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And it shouldn't be when 13.5 BL is about the same speed as 19T brushed.

pgeldz...I'd suggest you talk to your race director and point out this is no where near equivalent before too many people invest in a BL system. My guess is that once they see how much faster the 10.5 systems are they are going to have to change the rules.
When he first suggested the use of a 10.5, I told him 13.5 would be more equal to 23T...

After his initial testing of the 10.5, I asked him how it fared...he told me it was only slightly quicker, but you couldn't really take advantage of it due to the track design. That, and he also said it was slightly hard because of less motor braking, but I'd think you could take care of that with a "drag brake" setting on the ESC.

Maybe it's only slightly quicker because the Yokomo 10.5 is not the best brushless motor? Or maybe because it doesn't really matter with the batteries we are using...we are restricted to NiMh, 3700mah or lower. The only cells even worth runnng are the ones made by Atlantis. The only other competitive 3700's are by GP, and they are not as good, as they are older technology.

Guys, good looking out though on the ESC. Looks like the Tekin RS is basically future-proof, and it's very small. Not as small as my QC3, but at least it'll fit without having to mount it on top of something else...

Only drawback though is that it's still pretty expensive, at $190 or so. I'm willing to overlook that though due to the minimal maintanance that a brushless system brings to the table. No more waiting for motors to come into stock, break-in every month, brush cleaning, etc. I'm sure you still have to care after the brushless motor, but not to the same degree I hope...



- Paulie
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:20 AM   #10
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If he tested the 10.5 and found it only slightly quicker he didn't test it properly. I suggest you tell him to try again only this time try different gearing . These things thrive on being geared up.

Terry


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Originally Posted by pgeldz View Post
When he first suggested the use of a 10.5, I told him 13.5 would be more equal to 23T...

After his initial testing of the 10.5, I asked him how it fared...he told me it was only slightly quicker, but you couldn't really take advantage of it due to the track design. That, and he also said it was slightly hard because of less motor braking, but I'd think you could take care of that with a "drag brake" setting on the ESC.

Maybe it's only slightly quicker because the Yokomo 10.5 is not the best brushless motor? Or maybe because it doesn't really matter with the batteries we are using...we are restricted to NiMh, 3700mah or lower. The only cells even worth runnng are the ones made by Atlantis. The only other competitive 3700's are by GP, and they are not as good, as they are older technology.

Guys, good looking out though on the ESC. Looks like the Tekin RS is basically future-proof, and it's very small. Not as small as my QC3, but at least it'll fit without having to mount it on top of something else...

Only drawback though is that it's still pretty expensive, at $190 or so. I'm willing to overlook that though due to the minimal maintanance that a brushless system brings to the table. No more waiting for motors to come into stock, break-in every month, brush cleaning, etc. I'm sure you still have to care after the brushless motor, but not to the same degree I hope...



- Paulie
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgeldz View Post
Not really sure where he came with that ratio...

I don't think anyone will really be able to use all that extra speed though as the 23T's are plenty fast already for our track.

If I make the switch to Brusless, it's going in a Tamiya EVO 5 MS (shaft drive). Not sure how that chassis will handle the torque of a 10.5

I grew up on shaft drive with the TC3 back in the day, and everytime I measure my performance doing a shaft vs belt shootout, I'm always faster with shaft drive.

I'm just afraid a 10.5 might be too much for a shaft driven chassis...

I guess time will tell...

Thanks for the heads up on the Tekin RS ESC. I'll definitly check that out.



- Paulie
Hi Paulie,

I run 10.5T on my Evo 5MS. I personally don't think there's any issue with the car handling the power. No torque steer, if that's what you are looking for! In fact, it has been able to keep up with guys running up to 8.5T. A thing about the chassis though, it rolls quite a bit but it seems to love it?!

I'm too looking at the Tekin RS esc, so far what I had gathered, its an excellent esc. Probably be getting it too!

Good luck to your racing with this great chassis!

Cheers!!
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Team Ash View Post
If he tested the 10.5 and found it only slightly quicker he didn't test it properly. I suggest you tell him to try again only this time try different gearing . These things thrive on being geared up.

Terry
I think that's where the discrepancy lies...

His gearing was virtually the same as what he ran with the 23T. Not sure if he tried to hear up and had heat issues or not, but yeah, with teh same gearing maybe there wasn't that much of a difference...

Good to know about the EVO 5 MS being able to handle the power...I think I may have to try out this Yokomo brushless 10.5 next season...

- Paulie
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:58 AM   #13
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The only way a 23t should be able to run with a 10.5 would be a super tight, slow track and even then a 10.5 should smoke it unless he was running a no timing ESC.

I have found that 19t can beat 10.5's on really short, tight tracks. At least for the first half of the race anyway. As soon as you get to a medium sized track, 10.5 dominates.

You have to remember that in his testing, he probably had a well sorted 23t and had it running pretty much as fast as it could go. With the 10.5 he obviously hadn't got his brake settings figured out and probably didn't have gearing and timing maxed out either. Despite that, he was still a bit quicker so just imagine how quick he will be with time to find a proper set-up.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:43 PM   #14
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You have to remember that in his testing, he probably had a well sorted 23t and had it running pretty much as fast as it could go. With the 10.5 he obviously hadn't got his brake settings figured out and probably didn't have gearing and timing maxed out either. Despite that, he was still a bit quicker so just imagine how quick he will be with time to find a proper set-up.
Yeah, I hear ya. I think I'll give the 10.5 a try next season. Most likely, I'll go with the Tekin RS ESC. Seems to be the smallest one out there that can do it all.

I'm pretty new to the whole timing advance thing though, and I understand the Tekin Hotwire has a whole range of adjustment, to include something called Turbo Boost, which is separate from Timing boost. I honestly don't have a clue where the initial settings should be for the Yokomo 10.5, since probably no one in the US is running that motor...

- Paulie
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:31 PM   #15
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Paulie,

We race 11.5 turns with 23 turns in Singapore. These 2 are closer in performance. Most racers use the LRP SPX Competition Stock Spec or Tekin RS Pro for the brushless, for brush motors most use the LRP QC3 or Novak GTX. Both performs very will. LRP is easier to set up while the Tekin requires more technical skill.

Hope this helps.

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